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hey y'all Ryan Sprague here as you all

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know the summer in the skies podcast is

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over it's free to consume but it isn't

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free to create that's why I've started

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this somewhere in the skies patreon

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be something truly communal and remember

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there are rewards for each level of

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growing so please help somewhere in the

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skies now by becoming a patron to

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contribute and to learn more visit WWE

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and Comm backslash somewhere skies thank

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you for your support and now on with the

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show this is somewhere in the skies the

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Branzburg

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welcome to somewhere in the skies I'm

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your host Ryan Sprague as I continue to

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navigate my way through these stories of

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so many individuals who've had a UFO

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experience in some way shape or form I

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have to step back every now and again

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and realize that I'm also navigating my

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own personal journey as well no matter

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how objective I try to remain my

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personal thoughts feelings and beliefs

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would undoubtedly impact my work and how

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I approached the UFO phenomenon and my

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study oven and after reading a new book

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by today's guests I knew I wasn't alone

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in that journey

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Diana Veselka is a professor of

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Religious Studies at the University of

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North Carolina Wilmington in chair of

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the Department of Philosophy and

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religion her research focuses on

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religion and technology including

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supernatural belief and it's connections

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to digital technologies and environments

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and she is the author of American cosmic

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UFOs religion technology published by

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Oxford University Press more than half

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of American adults and more than 75% of

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young Americans believe in intelligent

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extraterrestrial life this level of

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belief rivals that of belief in God

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American cosmic examines the mechanisms

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at work behind the thriving belief

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system an easy life a system that is

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changing and even supplanting

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traditional religions over the course of

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a six year ethnographic study Diana

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interviewed successful and influential

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scientists professionals and Silicon

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Valley entrepreneurs who believe in ET

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intelligence thereby disproving the

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common misconception that only fringe

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members of society believe in UFOs she

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argues that widespread belief in aliens

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is due to a number of factors including

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their ubiquity in modern media which can

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influence

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memory and the believability linked to

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that media by the search for planets

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that might support life American cosmic

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explores the intriguing question of how

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people interpret unexplainable

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experiences and argues that the media is

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replacing religion as a cultural

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Authority that offers believers answers

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about non-human intelligent life and the

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enigmatic phenomenon often connected to

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all of this

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UFOs here's my interview with Diana

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Basilica

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Diana thank you so much for joining me

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today on somewhere in the skies

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absolutely I'm so happy to be here Ryan

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thank you I mean I got one of the

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advance copies of your book American

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cosmic UFOs religion and technology and

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I had been waiting for this for almost a

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year when I heard you were writing this

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thing I was just so ready to look for

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something new to look at in the UFO

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field it can get so stalled and stuffy

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at times so to know someone was out

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there boots on the ground bringing new

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perspectives to the forefront first of

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all I have to say congratulations on the

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book release and second oh thank you

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thank you for writing this oh absolutely

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absolutely and I do remember when you

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got your copy I don't even actually have

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a hard copy of it yes so I thought that

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was really funny I was like Ryan got a

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copy and I haven't I don't have a copy

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yet before the ah yeah I guess that's

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the perks of having a podcast I don't

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know I think it is well I mean there are

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so many avenues we could go down in this

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interview but I want to sort of start

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with your origin story I have to do this

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with a lot of my guests okay tell us a

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little bit about your dive into the

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world of academia what made you want to

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focus on religion first and foremost in

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Catholicism to be specific

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so I actually knew I wanted to become a

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professor of religion at the age of

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eleven and don't ask me why that is but

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I was fascinated by religion and I was

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fascinated by all kinds of religions so

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I was a fascinated by Buddhism Hinduism

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Taoism Catholicism Christianity Judaism

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and so I read everything I possibly

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could and I was my mother is Jewish from

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my father's Catholic so I did my parents

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sent me to a Catholic school for and

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this is in the day when those schools

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were run by sisters and so these sisters

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were very socially conscious and they

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were part of going down to central and I

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lived in California I grew up in

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California so they were going down to

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Central America and helping the poor and

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this was in the day

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Romero the the saint who was martyred I

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believe it was I think was on Christmas

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Eve and he was in a hospice I mean so I

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was really struck by people who had this

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vision that was bigger than them to help

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people and would even risk their lives

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to do that so the nuns and sisters at

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the school really made a giant

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impression on me and so that's how and

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when I decided to become - to learn

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about religion and I also I was struck

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by the beauty of a lot of religious

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languages like certain passages in the

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Bible or just you know there's sublime I

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mean you know the Sermon on the Mount

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you know blessed are the lilies of the

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field I mean beautiful so I wanted to

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actually I read the Bible when I was

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young and I said you know this doesn't

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make a lot of sense so I'd like to read

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it in its original language because I

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believe that it would make a lot more

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sense then and I was right so I I

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decided to you do have to focus when you

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go into an academic career and I decided

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to focus on Catholicism because that's

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one of the oldest forms of Christianity

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and I was interested in Christianity I

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am a Catholic and I focused on that

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tradition and you know and the early

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part of that tradition up through really

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I actually just you know I've written

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about 18th century Catholicism and that

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kind of thing so I'm familiar with the

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tradition obviously and and that's

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really what caused me to focus on on

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that and I mean growing up a Roman

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Catholic myself when I was when you

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reach that age where it's sort of okay

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you're on the edge of the cliff it's

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either you keep going with it or you you

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yes separate way we all have that moment

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of struggle yeah and for me it was okay

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I was sort of conditioned to follow this

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religion for half of my adolescence now

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I have the power and decision if I want

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to continue so I'm it was so interesting

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to know that you you took that leap and

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you wanted to learn about your religion

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and I did the same thing I started

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looking into like the actual history

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behind the religion how it came to be

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the original translate

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and that's when you really make that

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decision if if your belief is going to

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out away you know all these things are

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gonna find out about your actual

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religion so it's a very interesting

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dynamic for sure I didn't know that you

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that happened to you Ryan that's a great

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revelation here so so you started to

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read the original you know ideas and

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everything behind it what what decision

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did you make I decided that I was going

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to remain a practicing Catholic I I do

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not I I will admit I do not go as far

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into my faith as I think a lot of my

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family which i think is another big part

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of you know the whole idea of religion

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is these people you grow up with who've

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made you the person you are when faith

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is involved in that you almost feel this

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this need to want to appease them over

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the god you believe in you know so for

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me it was really more of wanting to make

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my family proud you know thank God so so

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it's it's so interesting this whole idea

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of religion and the the role it plays in

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one's life which I'm sure we're going to

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get to throughout this conversation so

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yeah that was it for me I still have

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that struggle and I still continue to

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follow my faith I've had instances in my

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life where I can't see any other way

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other than a miracle or you know a

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greater power being involved so that's

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where I sort of lay in terms of that

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when you bring the whole UFO thing into

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it that's a whole other level which is

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yet why yeah why I was waiting for a

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book like this for so long but I would I

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want to sort of shift gears here and not

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outside of Christianity but we have the

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conjuring a universe I am a huge fan of

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these movies so I have to ask how how in

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the hell did you become a part of this

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being a consultant on these films yeah

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it was awesome so okay so uh you know

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the first conjuring is this I think

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still

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the second I don't hit might even be the

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first now I'm not sure but it's the

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second grossing film of all time for the

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category of the supernatural so it

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displaced The Exorcist and I think M

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night Shyamalan so the Sixth Sense is

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the first so it was a huge huge hit and

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obviously James Wan is an incredibly

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talented producer and I worked with the

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screenwriters of conjuring 1 and I

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worked with the screenwriters of

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conjuring they were the screenwriters of

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conjuring 2 but something happened I

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work with them on the screenplay for

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that but it didn't actually make it into

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conjuring 2 so I guess whatever you know

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whatever happens in Hollywood happened

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and so they're there screenplay actually

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didn't make it into conjuring 2 so I

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can't say that I'm the actual although I

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consulted for it I don't think any of my

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consulting got into conjuring 2 but it's

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definitely in conjuring 1 and so what

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happened was that I just happened to be

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in Wilmington which is a place where

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films and TV shows are created and made

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we have a studio here like Dawson's

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Creek and you know the films like that

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and so so they were they were filming

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the conjuring here and they needed

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somebody it so Chad Hayes Carey Hayes

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are the screenwriters who are both

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Christian but they're not Catholic and

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so they you know the Catholic Church

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Ryan is like a brand right so it you

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know so if you if you if somebody calls

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me and they say hey we can't tell you

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what this is about but we need somebody

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to help us with Latin at the movie

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theater I mean at the movie studio and I

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thought oh this is going to be a film

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about an exorcism and I was like right

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so of course they're gonna you know it's

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00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:21,450
going to be a Catholic movie and so who

274
00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:24,600
else is going to need Latin you know so

275
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:27,839
I was hired to help them translate the

276
00:12:31,819 --> 00:12:29,610
Latin prayer of exorcism so that they

277
00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:31,829
can use that and then when I got on set

278
00:12:36,019 --> 00:12:33,720
I realized that they were talking about

279
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:36,029
two traditionalist Catholics and that

280
00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:37,680
that happens to be part of my specialty

281
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:40,350
is this type of Catholicism so I said oh

282
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:41,910
hey did you know this or that and they

283
00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:43,110
said no no we don't know

284
00:12:46,250 --> 00:12:44,940
don't know that and in fact what was

285
00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:46,260
really funny was that when they were

286
00:12:51,079 --> 00:12:48,870
translating the original prayer which is

287
00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:51,089
a write the Rite of exorcism they

288
00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:52,890
actually just translated the

289
00:12:56,569 --> 00:12:54,540
instructions they actually didn't even

290
00:13:00,019 --> 00:12:56,579
know where the prayer started and ended

291
00:13:01,699 --> 00:13:00,029
so they needed help so I said oh well

292
00:13:03,079 --> 00:13:01,709
you know you can use this or this and if

293
00:13:05,569 --> 00:13:03,089
you want I can write your a little

294
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:05,579
something about the IDI and Lorraine

295
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:07,890
Warren and who you know what kind of

296
00:13:12,259 --> 00:13:09,450
perspective they're coming from so I

297
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:12,269
started working with them and I've been

298
00:13:16,790 --> 00:13:14,730
working with them ever since they done a

299
00:13:19,579 --> 00:13:16,800
couple movies some have actually made it

300
00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:19,589
to TV you know to the screen and some

301
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:21,450
have not there was one I worked on with

302
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:25,200
them called SEAL Team six six six I

303
00:13:28,940 --> 00:13:26,850
believe with Dwayne Johnson and I don't

304
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,950
die and I worked with them for a long

305
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:30,240
time on that one but that would never

306
00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:32,160
made it to the screen so you know

307
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:34,529
Hollywood is this way it's it's what I

308
00:13:39,139 --> 00:13:36,690
found was what I was interested in

309
00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:39,149
though was I am an academic I was

310
00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:41,910
interested in religious how people

311
00:13:46,430 --> 00:13:44,220
become you know when I when I get my

312
00:13:47,870 --> 00:13:46,440
students in my classes the first thing I

313
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:47,880
tell them if it's like you know

314
00:13:51,860 --> 00:13:50,250
undergrad class I say most of what

315
00:13:53,780 --> 00:13:51,870
you've learned comes from the movies

316
00:13:54,259 --> 00:13:53,790
about religion I mean just a sit right

317
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:54,269
you know

318
00:13:58,370 --> 00:13:56,490
so you think Mary Magdalene was a

319
00:14:00,079 --> 00:13:58,380
prostitute and Jesus is white and so

320
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:00,089
they're like whoa whoa wait a minute you

321
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:02,310
know is this true I'm like yeah it's not

322
00:14:09,050 --> 00:14:05,730
true guys and so and so I go through a

323
00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:09,060
lot of demystification process and

324
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:10,529
basically say let's actually read the

325
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:14,220
book so that's what I do in class I use

326
00:14:18,350 --> 00:14:16,170
you know I show how pop culture kind of

327
00:14:19,699 --> 00:14:18,360
changes what we think of religion so I

328
00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:19,709
was really interested in this and that's

329
00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:21,690
why motivation for being involved also

330
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:24,540
got paid and I also got my students

331
00:14:28,490 --> 00:14:25,890
involved in it and they were you know

332
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:28,500
they was huge for them but yeah so I

333
00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:31,050
wanted to see exactly the process that

334
00:14:35,090 --> 00:14:32,790
media goes through you know like really

335
00:14:38,150 --> 00:14:35,100
popular media mass media basically you

336
00:14:40,850 --> 00:14:38,160
know what happens to to a movie in order

337
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:40,860
to create religious belief because the

338
00:14:45,620 --> 00:14:42,690
conjuring did create a lot of religious

339
00:14:48,019 --> 00:14:45,630
belief and I got to witness it firsthand

340
00:14:49,699 --> 00:14:48,029
and that was my motivation for doing it

341
00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:49,709
um so it was almost like applied

342
00:14:54,110 --> 00:14:51,990
research for me and I told you know I

343
00:14:55,309 --> 00:14:54,120
didn't I mean I did tell the

344
00:14:56,390 --> 00:14:55,319
screenwriters I was going to do that I

345
00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:56,400
said I you know I'm going to write

346
00:15:01,519 --> 00:14:57,930
this and they were like nobody reads

347
00:15:03,019 --> 00:15:01,529
academic articles anyway so go ahead so

348
00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:03,029
we became friends so their friends have

349
00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:05,790
mine actually and and so I got to see

350
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:09,150
James Wan and I just saw Aquaman and I'm

351
00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:11,610
a fan of his and he's just an incredible

352
00:15:15,130 --> 00:15:13,560
producer so yeah it was really a cool

353
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:15,140
cool thing for me

354
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:18,330
absolutely and I agree Aquaman was you

355
00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:20,250
know one of my favorite movies of this

356
00:15:24,019 --> 00:15:21,870
past year no matter what people thought

357
00:15:26,329 --> 00:15:24,029
of it James Wan is a brilliant producer

358
00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:26,339
and I think that's really interesting

359
00:15:33,769 --> 00:15:28,260
little did they know you'd be writing a

360
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:33,779
book about all of this as well at this

361
00:15:38,210 --> 00:15:36,240
point but no I completely understand

362
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:38,220
that idea of Hollywood and mass media

363
00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:41,790
and how it influences our beliefs I

364
00:15:48,590 --> 00:15:45,990
recently you know had my brush with

365
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:48,600
Hollywood in terms of the Roswell case

366
00:15:56,210 --> 00:15:51,330
and I was invited to do a press junket

367
00:15:59,210 --> 00:15:56,220
with the Roswell New Mexico cast CW

368
00:16:02,030 --> 00:15:59,220
drama which is fiction and they wanted

369
00:16:04,699 --> 00:16:02,040
me there to consult and to tell the

370
00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:04,709
press about the actual Roswell case so

371
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:06,750
again I love when Hollywood takes these

372
00:16:11,329 --> 00:16:08,910
chances gets academics involved

373
00:16:12,769 --> 00:16:11,339
consultants and wants to hear the real

374
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:12,779
story and how they can implement that

375
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:15,480
into their fictional versions of all

376
00:16:19,220 --> 00:16:17,220
this and I will tell you this after

377
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:19,230
going to this event and explaining the

378
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:21,410
actual Roswell event to everyone I

379
00:16:27,410 --> 00:16:25,500
received so many cards and emails after

380
00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:27,420
that from the writers of Roswell New

381
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:29,820
Mexico so clearly there's this hunger in

382
00:16:35,750 --> 00:16:31,620
need to want to know what what the

383
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:35,760
actual story is be having a lot so it's

384
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:37,380
again it's good to know that you know

385
00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:41,250
they're not out to to change everything

386
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,620
I understand you know we have the

387
00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:45,120
Project Blue Book show doing the same

388
00:16:48,740 --> 00:16:47,670
thing as well so that struggle is always

389
00:16:51,410 --> 00:16:48,750
gonna be there when it comes to

390
00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:51,420
Hollywood and in UFOs but I have to ask

391
00:16:56,810 --> 00:16:53,700
you how did your your interest first

392
00:16:58,490 --> 00:16:56,820
come about in the UFO topic so strangely

393
00:17:02,090 --> 00:16:58,500
enough I was never really interested in

394
00:17:04,340 --> 00:17:02,100
UFOs at all and what happened was that I

395
00:17:07,189 --> 00:17:04,350
wrote this book about purgatory it was

396
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:07,199
the first book I wrote and purgatory as

397
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:08,970
you know as a Catholic is or maybe you

398
00:17:12,299 --> 00:17:09,730
don't know I don't know

399
00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:12,309
is this place where Souls go if they're

400
00:17:16,829 --> 00:17:13,870
not good enough to go to heaven after

401
00:17:18,529 --> 00:17:16,839
they die right so and for like you know

402
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:18,539
a long long time

403
00:17:24,299 --> 00:17:21,760
1,500 or so years Catholics practiced

404
00:17:26,340 --> 00:17:24,309
devotions to souls in purgatory and then

405
00:17:28,379 --> 00:17:26,350
after the 1960s it just stopped and

406
00:17:30,330 --> 00:17:28,389
people didn't really do that anymore and

407
00:17:31,919 --> 00:17:30,340
young Catholics don't do that and so I

408
00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:31,929
thought you know that's really oughta I

409
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:34,750
want to know why so I did this it took

410
00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:36,730
me about I mean academics take a long

411
00:17:41,549 --> 00:17:37,990
time to write books so it took me about

412
00:17:43,799 --> 00:17:41,559
ten years to write this book so I you

413
00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:43,809
know read a lot of different languages

414
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:47,710
of reports of Catholics from about 1200

415
00:17:54,690 --> 00:17:51,850
on up to about the 1800s and their

416
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:54,700
reports of so what they would call souls

417
00:17:59,490 --> 00:17:57,730
in purgatory and so a lot of this stuff

418
00:18:01,080 --> 00:17:59,500
was really weird right I mean we're

419
00:18:04,110 --> 00:18:01,090
talking about you know nun hanging out

420
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:04,120
in her cell and then this this you know

421
00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:06,490
light luminous light comes through her

422
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:08,590
cell and each night and you know she

423
00:18:11,730 --> 00:18:10,570
tries to tell the people of her

424
00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:11,740
community and they don't believe her

425
00:18:15,509 --> 00:18:13,480
finally the Mother Superior comes in and

426
00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:15,519
sees it herself and they they're they

427
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:16,750
interpret it as a soul from purgatory

428
00:18:20,759 --> 00:18:19,120
well there were there were so many of

429
00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:20,769
these really strange kinds of aerial

430
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:23,529
phenomena things and beams of light and

431
00:18:28,259 --> 00:18:25,210
luminous beings and things like that

432
00:18:30,629 --> 00:18:28,269
that I I kept a log of them and I didn't

433
00:18:33,269 --> 00:18:30,639
quite understand what the heck they were

434
00:18:35,879 --> 00:18:33,279
so I and they happened throughout

435
00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:35,889
history so and they had patterns that

436
00:18:39,629 --> 00:18:38,049
were similar so what I did was they just

437
00:18:41,789 --> 00:18:39,639
kept a log of these things as I went

438
00:18:43,470 --> 00:18:41,799
along and flying me at the end of my

439
00:18:45,690 --> 00:18:43,480
book so I'm done with this book okay I

440
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:45,700
finally get it into my editor and I have

441
00:18:48,509 --> 00:18:47,110
this you know I only include one of

442
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:48,519
those things in the book because they're

443
00:18:51,930 --> 00:18:50,080
just so weird I don't really know where

444
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:51,940
to put them and so I show it to a friend

445
00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:53,200
of mine and I say what do you what do

446
00:18:56,399 --> 00:18:54,940
you make of this stuff and he looks

447
00:18:58,620 --> 00:18:56,409
through it and he goes oh wow looks

448
00:19:00,360 --> 00:18:58,630
really Steven Spielberg ish and I go I

449
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:00,370
go what are you talking about and he

450
00:19:05,009 --> 00:19:02,230
goes you know this looks this looks like

451
00:19:07,110 --> 00:19:05,019
UFOs and I said well you're crazy and I

452
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:07,120
kind of like dismissed it entirely

453
00:19:13,169 --> 00:19:09,760
and then synchronicity the next week

454
00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:13,179
there was a there was a UFO conference

455
00:19:17,639 --> 00:19:15,880
and it was actually there that I I first

456
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:17,649
I didn't meet but I first heard Chris

457
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:20,110
Bledsoe talk and so I realized when I

458
00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:22,690
went I was listening to the same kind of

459
00:19:25,650 --> 00:19:23,230
thing

460
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:25,660
were you know that that in fact my

461
00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:27,730
friend was right that this that's the

462
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:30,550
stuff of my research looked very similar

463
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:33,280
to experience there's reports of aerial

464
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:35,620
phenomena and luminous beams and stuff

465
00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:37,600
and so that's when I started to get into

466
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:40,840
looking at the patterns of historical

467
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:44,860
aerial phenomena and current aerial

468
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:47,710
phenomena interesting so that was sort

469
00:19:53,850 --> 00:19:50,890
of the the inception of American cosmic

470
00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:53,860
was this like chance off remark by

471
00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:55,990
someone that you had you were recording

472
00:20:01,230 --> 00:19:58,690
UFO of it that's so fascinating isn't

473
00:20:03,690 --> 00:20:01,240
that weird yeah how these things come to

474
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:03,700
be well I have to ask how how did the

475
00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:05,710
preface of your book come to be you're

476
00:20:10,980 --> 00:20:08,560
in a car ride with Jacques Vallee this

477
00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:10,990
is like a fantasy dream for every you

478
00:20:19,170 --> 00:20:16,060
fall it's like what significance do you

479
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:19,180
give this experience with Jacques sort

480
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:20,320
of that's the jumping off point for

481
00:20:25,260 --> 00:20:23,290
American cosmic okay so American cosmic

482
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:25,270
first of all is a ride right so you're

483
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:27,310
like you're going through this may this

484
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:29,440
is a crazy journey and it was a crazy

485
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:33,760
journey for me and so so after when I

486
00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:36,310
first decided to look into the patterns

487
00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:39,220
with you know historical Catholic things

488
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:42,190
arrow phenomena and and current arrow

489
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:44,440
film phenomena thankfully I read two

490
00:20:50,010 --> 00:20:47,410
books that were helpful I read Jacques

491
00:20:52,530 --> 00:20:50,020
ballets passport - magana that you wrote

492
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:52,540
in 1968 by the way which is amazing and

493
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:54,490
so he did the same thing he basically

494
00:20:58,350 --> 00:20:56,200
made the same jump at the same move that

495
00:21:00,060 --> 00:20:58,360
I made so in a sense he's like a proto

496
00:21:02,220 --> 00:21:00,070
religious studies scholar and I tell him

497
00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:02,230
that all the time and religious studies

498
00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:05,020
scholars loved Jacques Vallee and you

499
00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:06,940
know they're like oh wow this guy was so

500
00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:09,460
you know in the 1960s he already knew

501
00:21:15,330 --> 00:21:13,540
what was going on and and so I I was to

502
00:21:18,210 --> 00:21:15,340
tell you the truth Brian I was actually

503
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:18,220
quite freaked out when I realized what I

504
00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:20,050
had that this stuff I was looking at

505
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:22,030
could still be going on like with you

506
00:21:26,250 --> 00:21:24,250
know the Chris Bledsoe case what similar

507
00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:26,260
so it actually shocked me quite a bit

508
00:21:31,050 --> 00:21:29,020
and I was in kind of a I would call it a

509
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:31,060
stupor almost almost like a stupor like

510
00:21:39,169 --> 00:21:36,419
whoa hi oh my mind is blown and so I

511
00:21:42,139 --> 00:21:39,179
Jacque valets booked recognize that

512
00:21:44,330 --> 00:21:42,149
here's a person who's you know has a PhD

513
00:21:46,399 --> 00:21:44,340
in actually computer science but is you

514
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,409
know Anna's an astronomer but actually

515
00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:48,480
is doing what I do and then I read

516
00:21:53,090 --> 00:21:50,940
Jeffrey cry poles book called authors of

517
00:21:55,249 --> 00:21:53,100
the impossible and strangely enough

518
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:55,259
another week synchronicity was that I

519
00:21:59,810 --> 00:21:57,330
think it's his either his third or fifth

520
00:22:01,479 --> 00:21:59,820
chapter is on Jacques la and it's called

521
00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:01,489
future folklore or something like that

522
00:22:07,099 --> 00:22:04,769
and it is one of the most amazing short

523
00:22:08,989 --> 00:22:07,109
pieces ever and anybody who's interested

524
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:08,999
in Jacques ballet and Jeff cripples work

525
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:11,039
should read that it's just just get that

526
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:13,049
book for that one chapter is amazing and

527
00:22:17,629 --> 00:22:16,289
so I and strangely this is another

528
00:22:20,539 --> 00:22:17,639
strength thing that happened that was

529
00:22:24,019 --> 00:22:20,549
weird was that my editor contacted jeff

530
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:24,029
kraebel to blur my purgatory book and so

531
00:22:27,979 --> 00:22:26,129
I was already in touch so Jeff trifle

532
00:22:29,869 --> 00:22:27,989
then like emailed me and said hey I'm

533
00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:29,879
gonna blurb your purgatory book and I

534
00:22:34,999 --> 00:22:32,190
said wow I just read your authors the

535
00:22:36,859 --> 00:22:35,009
impossible and so and we started to talk

536
00:22:41,210 --> 00:22:36,869
and we knew a lot of people in common

537
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:41,220
and so we then became colleagues and

538
00:22:45,649 --> 00:22:42,960
then I had written Jacque an

539
00:22:47,269 --> 00:22:45,659
old-fashioned type letter I saw his post

540
00:22:49,310 --> 00:22:47,279
office box on his website and I wrote

541
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:49,320
him a letter and I introduced myself and

542
00:22:53,389 --> 00:22:51,690
he said when you know I have lots of as

543
00:22:54,889 --> 00:22:53,399
you know I grew up in California so I

544
00:22:58,190 --> 00:22:54,899
have lots of family there he said next

545
00:23:01,099 --> 00:22:58,200
time here in California come by and you

546
00:23:03,169 --> 00:23:01,109
know his wife and he would take would

547
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:03,179
you know have me to dinner and stuff so

548
00:23:08,029 --> 00:23:06,330
I met Jacques and so I knew Jacque so we

549
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:08,039
started to collaborate and I

550
00:23:14,869 --> 00:23:09,450
collaborated with jeff kraebel

551
00:23:16,729 --> 00:23:14,879
so the ride then so I also got in touch

552
00:23:21,049 --> 00:23:16,739
with Robbie Graham he's as you know a

553
00:23:23,419 --> 00:23:21,059
ufologist in England and he was doing

554
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:23,429
media and UFOs and and his work was

555
00:23:28,099 --> 00:23:26,159
really interesting so I Jeff and I

556
00:23:30,739 --> 00:23:28,109
invited him to a conference at Big Sur

557
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:30,749
and Jacques was there and so at the end

558
00:23:34,909 --> 00:23:32,850
of the conference somehow Robbie and I

559
00:23:37,009 --> 00:23:34,919
didn't have rides back to San Francisco

560
00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:37,019
and some Jacques offered to take us and

561
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:41,039
we were both like yeah you know like

562
00:23:46,729 --> 00:23:44,129
awesome so we could we get in the car

563
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:46,739
and Jacques drives us first of all as

564
00:23:51,210 --> 00:23:48,910
yok wants to show us Silicon Valley

565
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:51,220
and I am just like dude I am taking

566
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:53,100
notes you know I mean this is gonna be

567
00:23:58,170 --> 00:23:55,870
amazing so he and I know Silicon Valley

568
00:24:00,090 --> 00:23:58,180
like I grew up there right so but all

569
00:24:02,910 --> 00:24:00,100
the things he showed us and through his

570
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:02,920
eyes I just saw it in such new ways and

571
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:06,640
so he's kind of a fast driver so I was

572
00:24:11,130 --> 00:24:09,190
scared but I was also like I didn't care

573
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:11,140
I was like I'm gonna die in this car

574
00:24:16,470 --> 00:24:13,810
maybe but I'm okay with it because I am

575
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:16,480
being given this opportunity and at the

576
00:24:22,860 --> 00:24:19,510
end of it he so he showed us all around

577
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:22,870
we had lunch in Santa Cruz and and then

578
00:24:27,510 --> 00:24:24,550
when we were done we had dropped Robbie

579
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:27,520
off at his hotel and and then when we

580
00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:29,050
were done my brother was picking me up

581
00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:30,940
Jacques got out and he said I forgot to

582
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:32,830
give you this book and he gave me this

583
00:24:37,230 --> 00:24:34,240
book and he said you need to read this

584
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:37,240
one first and I of course I'm gonna read

585
00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:40,540
it first okay so yeah so that's how it

586
00:24:46,740 --> 00:24:44,950
went so I yeah so Jacques is like I said

587
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:46,750
you know Jacques is brilliant he's a

588
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:49,810
brilliant he's funny I mean he's

589
00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:51,490
probably one of the funniest people that

590
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:55,180
I've met and just really knows so much

591
00:25:01,740 --> 00:24:58,690
about this field and is really has a lot

592
00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:01,750
of integrity when you start to get into

593
00:25:06,270 --> 00:25:04,270
the meat of your book you can see these

594
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:06,280
traces of sort of everything Valley

595
00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:09,580
represents is his his burst onto the

596
00:25:15,090 --> 00:25:12,280
scene as a computer scientist like a

597
00:25:18,270 --> 00:25:15,100
technologist almost merging it with his

598
00:25:20,130 --> 00:25:18,280
folklore in religious aspects of what he

599
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:20,140
would ultimately find was the UFO

600
00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:23,290
phenomenon and that's it's just so

601
00:25:27,870 --> 00:25:25,390
interesting how it sort of bled into

602
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:27,880
what you would eventually journey into

603
00:25:32,790 --> 00:25:30,880
and that journey really caught my

604
00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:32,800
attention with this thriller ask

605
00:25:40,890 --> 00:25:36,340
fashioned of your first chapter so we

606
00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:40,900
have you blindfolded of a desert I mean

607
00:25:47,130 --> 00:25:43,270
talk about Spielberg talk about like you

608
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:47,140
know these action movies can you paint a

609
00:25:51,540 --> 00:25:49,930
picture for us as to why you were in the

610
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:51,550
middle of the desert with a blindfold

611
00:25:58,470 --> 00:25:54,490
who you were with and what you found

612
00:26:01,890 --> 00:25:58,480
there okay so alright so when I first

613
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:01,900
began the study it was in 2012 and I

614
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:03,010
didn't

615
00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:05,290
expect anything like what actually

616
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:07,150
happened I thought this is going to be a

617
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:09,130
pretty easy study because it's pretty

618
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:10,690
easy to make these patterns and

619
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:12,910
connections and talk about them but what

620
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:15,250
actually happened was that I found that

621
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:18,640
you know actors that are household names

622
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:21,520
and screenwriters you know and people

623
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:23,530
affiliated with the government you know

624
00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:25,210
agents and people like that we're all

625
00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:28,870
very interested in the topic and in fact

626
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:32,680
I was unprepared for that so I took a

627
00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:35,290
bat I kind of stopped the study for a

628
00:26:39,330 --> 00:26:37,750
bit and I thought this is just maybe too

629
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:39,340
weird for me you know like I'm just a

630
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:40,810
normal professor for doing normal

631
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:43,120
professor these stuff and it should I

632
00:26:49,980 --> 00:26:46,890
really be doing this type of thing and

633
00:26:52,050 --> 00:26:49,990
Brenda denzler actually who's a wrote

634
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:52,060
the lure of the edge she's a she has her

635
00:26:57,630 --> 00:26:55,360
PhD from Duke she she thought she was

636
00:26:59,670 --> 00:26:57,640
dying actually she had cancer and she's

637
00:27:01,200 --> 00:26:59,680
thankfully alive and well but she

638
00:27:03,420 --> 00:27:01,210
thought she was dying so she decided to

639
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:03,430
give I didn't know her but she gave her

640
00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:05,410
library to me which is this immense

641
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:07,900
library and this is when I decided I was

642
00:27:13,470 --> 00:27:10,450
gonna stop because there were scientists

643
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:13,480
who were falling around experiencers

644
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:16,450
trying to do technology from this and I

645
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:18,370
thought this is way you know out of my

646
00:27:22,140 --> 00:27:20,770
comfort zone and so I went to her

647
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:22,150
research and I started looking through

648
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:24,010
everything that you know her library and

649
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:26,320
I realized no I really have to do this

650
00:27:30,450 --> 00:27:29,200
because it was so religious like you

651
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:30,460
know there was so there were so many

652
00:27:35,550 --> 00:27:34,000
connections with religion that it so

653
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:35,560
that was that's what pulled me back in

654
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:38,650
now what happened was that one of these

655
00:27:47,070 --> 00:27:42,610
scientists asked me to go to the desert

656
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:47,080
to see this crash site and I thought no

657
00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:49,720
way am I gonna go you know myself so I

658
00:27:55,170 --> 00:27:52,360
said well if I can take a person with me

659
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:55,180
I'll go and so yeah so he's like it

660
00:27:58,350 --> 00:27:56,770
depends on who it is you know kind of

661
00:28:01,410 --> 00:27:58,360
thing and maybe maybe not I have to get

662
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:01,420
permission and so then I asked Jeff

663
00:28:05,610 --> 00:28:03,850
Crapo if he'd go and Jeff was like Diana

664
00:28:07,530 --> 00:28:05,620
that's just too weird for me and I was

665
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:07,540
like it is it is weird isn't it he goes

666
00:28:11,670 --> 00:28:09,370
yeah and I said maybe I shouldn't do it

667
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:11,680
and then I had just been introduced to

668
00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:15,570
James and James was is this amazing

669
00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:16,990
scientist

670
00:28:22,620 --> 00:28:19,960
and he and I have similar ways of

671
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:22,630
looking at the world in that we kind of

672
00:28:26,190 --> 00:28:24,399
accept the same code of ethics that

673
00:28:29,850 --> 00:28:26,200
academic cept were except we're both

674
00:28:32,159 --> 00:28:29,860
academic so he's he's obsessed with the

675
00:28:37,380 --> 00:28:32,169
topic and so I said will you go with me

676
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:37,390
here and he's like I'll go tomorrow so

677
00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:39,970
but but the other scientist was said you

678
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:42,580
know Tyler he said no no you know no and

679
00:28:46,769 --> 00:28:44,770
I knew that he'd say yes and just given

680
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:46,779
enough time so I think two or three days

681
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:49,090
later he said he had he must have like

682
00:28:53,730 --> 00:28:51,730
googled James and then he said ok yeah

683
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:53,740
sounds good let's go so we went out

684
00:28:58,380 --> 00:28:56,080
there so James and I got blindfolded we

685
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:58,390
went out to New Mexico we were both

686
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:00,399
really you know we've kind of bonded by

687
00:29:04,590 --> 00:29:02,710
this time you know like okay how was

688
00:29:07,049 --> 00:29:04,600
this gonna be like and everything and so

689
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:07,059
you know we were told to wear you know

690
00:29:12,299 --> 00:29:09,490
there it was gonna be really cold but

691
00:29:13,769 --> 00:29:12,309
sunny so we might get a sunburn and we

692
00:29:15,899 --> 00:29:13,779
were told to wear like high boots

693
00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:15,909
because of rattlesnakes and stuff so you

694
00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:17,740
know we were going to this place so we

695
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:21,270
it took about 40 minutes in this car and

696
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:24,399
we were both pretty nervous and we got

697
00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:27,370
out there and I went out there as just

698
00:29:31,350 --> 00:29:29,590
an academic you know like I'm studying

699
00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:31,360
something I'm studying these the

700
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:34,750
scientists belief in a UFO crash site

701
00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:36,880
right that's what I'm studying and so we

702
00:29:40,139 --> 00:29:38,500
get out there and I we take off her

703
00:29:42,210 --> 00:29:40,149
blindfold and I'm looking around and I'm

704
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:42,220
thinking this somehow looks very

705
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:45,250
familiar but I don't I don't quite know

706
00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:46,330
how it looks familiar

707
00:29:50,490 --> 00:29:48,580
and I'm looking around and Tyler looks

708
00:29:52,889 --> 00:29:50,500
at me and says does this look familiar

709
00:29:55,230 --> 00:29:52,899
to you and I said oh wait this guy

710
00:29:58,590 --> 00:29:55,240
always freaks me out and I go um yeah I

711
00:30:00,269 --> 00:29:58,600
does and he said well this was you know

712
00:30:02,399 --> 00:30:00,279
he said it was like on the episode of

713
00:30:05,389 --> 00:30:02,409
the x-files and I recognizing it and I

714
00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:05,399
said oh yeah this is that sight and so

715
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:08,380
he said they maybe they had an insider

716
00:30:15,180 --> 00:30:11,380
on their production you know in there

717
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:15,190
and I was like whoa so then I was then I

718
00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:16,960
realized that I was in the right place

719
00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:18,940
because this is how belief is created

720
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:20,860
right through media and I thought well

721
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:22,710
now we're talking now I can actually

722
00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:26,710
think through what this means so we were

723
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:29,020
there to find some parts and no it you

724
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:30,610
know we were there all day

725
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:33,610
we had metal detectors and we did find

726
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:35,620
some parts and both James and I were

727
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:36,910
like looking at each other kind of

728
00:30:40,620 --> 00:30:39,190
saying are these parts planted here so

729
00:30:44,270 --> 00:30:40,630
you know I don't really know if they

730
00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:44,280
were or not but we found parts and

731
00:30:49,289 --> 00:30:46,809
that's how it opens that's how it starts

732
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:49,299
yeah and you know eventually those parts

733
00:30:53,910 --> 00:30:51,730
to play a large role throughout the book

734
00:30:55,850 --> 00:30:53,920
the next thing I want to cover in terms

735
00:30:59,370 --> 00:30:55,860
of Tyler G this very mysterious

736
00:31:02,340 --> 00:30:59,380
enigmatic character that bleeds

737
00:31:05,610 --> 00:31:02,350
throughout your book he is kind of our

738
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:05,620
introduction to the Invisibles which is

739
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:12,880
a fascinating subnet any student of LA

740
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:14,799
should be familiar with at this point if

741
00:31:20,430 --> 00:31:17,590
not yeah they found miserably but for

742
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:20,440
those who may not know that term Dianna

743
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:21,970
could you maybe describe for us how

744
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:24,610
Tyler fits into this quote-unquote

745
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:28,809
invisible College of swords so um one of

746
00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:30,730
the books that Jacque writes is called

747
00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:33,400
the invisible college and basically what

748
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:35,070
he's doing is he's making reference to

749
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:38,049
the scientists of Francis Bacon's time

750
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:39,970
and a little bit you know of early

751
00:31:45,030 --> 00:31:42,970
modernity and there they have to do

752
00:31:47,070 --> 00:31:45,040
their science and secret because if they

753
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:47,080
do it openly they might get their heads

754
00:31:52,260 --> 00:31:50,530
chopped off so basically so valet and

755
00:31:54,510 --> 00:31:52,270
Hynek basically I think it may even be

756
00:31:56,370 --> 00:31:54,520
high-neck to create who coins you know

757
00:31:58,560 --> 00:31:56,380
who wants to use that term you we're the

758
00:31:59,940 --> 00:31:58,570
invisible college and so it's it's

759
00:32:02,370 --> 00:31:59,950
basically the scientists who are

760
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:02,380
secretive but they talk to each other

761
00:32:08,850 --> 00:32:07,270
about their work and they study UFOs but

762
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:08,860
they don't and I call it the John Mac

763
00:32:12,539 --> 00:32:10,690
effect they they're not out with their

764
00:32:15,659 --> 00:32:12,549
research because they all have careers

765
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:15,669
and if you study UFOs like in John max

766
00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:18,370
day in the 1980s and 90s your career

767
00:32:23,549 --> 00:32:22,240
comes under scrutiny and you could you

768
00:32:25,380 --> 00:32:23,559
know you could actually ruin your career

769
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:25,390
if you're say an academic or scientist

770
00:32:30,210 --> 00:32:28,210
or something like that so I used the

771
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:30,220
term differently so I understand there's

772
00:32:34,350 --> 00:32:32,290
the invisible college but what I'm

773
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:34,360
trying to say here is that it's very

774
00:32:40,590 --> 00:32:38,230
different than in when then in the 70s

775
00:32:43,169 --> 00:32:40,600
and 80s and 90s so the invisible college

776
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:43,179
is no longer scientists talking to each

777
00:32:46,490 --> 00:32:44,160
other

778
00:32:48,890 --> 00:32:46,500
because it's more like Fight Club where

779
00:32:51,410 --> 00:32:48,900
the rule is you don't talk about Fight

780
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:51,420
Club so what I found was that once you

781
00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:54,210
get into so there are these scientists

782
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:56,190
that are out there studying but then

783
00:33:00,560 --> 00:32:57,690
there's another group of these

784
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:00,570
scientists and they study it but they

785
00:33:05,330 --> 00:33:02,850
don't actually talk to each other about

786
00:33:07,970 --> 00:33:05,340
it they each have their thing that they

787
00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:07,980
do and it's very compartmentalized and

788
00:33:12,770 --> 00:33:10,350
so I tried to get a lot of information

789
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:12,780
about it and the deeper I got into it I

790
00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:15,690
found that doors would shut you know

791
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:17,700
like you just you know you you you know

792
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:20,100
we can't talk about that yeah so I got

793
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:21,930
that all the time oh yeah we don't talk

794
00:33:28,370 --> 00:33:24,450
about that so I was like okay but that's

795
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:28,380
what you study so they say that they

796
00:33:31,850 --> 00:33:29,670
study is a thing they don't actually

797
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:31,860
talk about I said I called Tyler Tyler

798
00:33:37,790 --> 00:33:34,710
after Tyler Durden loved it I thought

799
00:33:40,940 --> 00:33:37,800
that's that's amazing and that idea of

800
00:33:44,210 --> 00:33:40,950
it is it's you know with Fight Club I

801
00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:44,220
think if you've read the book or you see

802
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:47,460
the movie as soon as they start talking

803
00:33:52,130 --> 00:33:49,530
about it and inviting other people in

804
00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:52,140
that's when it altima crumbles so this

805
00:33:57,620 --> 00:33:54,840
idea of these Invisibles as you've sort

806
00:33:59,210 --> 00:33:57,630
of coined the term not talking about it

807
00:34:02,750 --> 00:33:59,220
not sharing their information with other

808
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:02,760
scientists it becomes such a personal

809
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:06,000
journey for these these scientists and

810
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:09,210
academics rather than this dark shadowy

811
00:34:14,419 --> 00:34:12,510
study between a group of them so that's

812
00:34:17,180 --> 00:34:14,429
really interesting and I know a lot of

813
00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:17,190
UFO researchers are the same way holding

814
00:34:21,700 --> 00:34:19,020
their information close to the chest

815
00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:21,710
because they're afraid of losing it of

816
00:34:26,659 --> 00:34:24,390
taking that journey on their own so I

817
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:26,669
can understand it in some senses so

818
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:29,790
that's really interesting yes so he was

819
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:34,169
that so Tyler Dee was and is a very

820
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:37,050
particular type of person of which there

821
00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:39,720
are probably more and I know there are

822
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:41,640
and but there aren't many of them and

823
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:44,700
they are you know they're wiped off the

824
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:47,520
internet too so every every couple I

825
00:34:51,350 --> 00:34:49,350
guess what's the one not once a month

826
00:34:53,870 --> 00:34:51,360
but when they need to be usually they

827
00:34:56,990 --> 00:34:53,880
get wiped off the internet yeah well not

828
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:57,000
only that when they go places doors just

829
00:35:00,230 --> 00:34:57,450
Oh

830
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:00,240
been for them which is a fascinating

831
00:35:07,069 --> 00:35:03,690
part in your book is wherever this dude

832
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:07,079
goes people are just willing to give him

833
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:09,570
information based solely on who he is

834
00:35:13,660 --> 00:35:11,820
so I can't imagine what it's like being

835
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:13,670
next to a person like that and just

836
00:35:19,630 --> 00:35:17,010
knowing the power he wields but not you

837
00:35:23,510 --> 00:35:19,640
no one ever knowing it it's fascinating

838
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:23,520
it is it's it was crazy for both James

839
00:35:31,099 --> 00:35:26,880
and I and and people who do know him

840
00:35:33,740 --> 00:35:31,109
yeah it's uh it's it's and like I said

841
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:33,750
it's part it's part of what was shocking

842
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:36,089
to me I think in you know cuz when I

843
00:35:40,609 --> 00:35:38,460
studied Catholic history I never met

844
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:40,619
anybody like Tyler Dean yeah and we

845
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:42,210
could tell you his power when it comes

846
00:35:48,260 --> 00:35:44,790
to little thing we call the Vatican in a

847
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:48,270
little bit but there is a quote that

848
00:35:53,540 --> 00:35:50,700
you've brought up in I believe both the

849
00:35:55,849 --> 00:35:53,550
book and several interviews by Carl Jung

850
00:35:57,890 --> 00:35:55,859
and I love this quote about flying

851
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:57,900
saucers they have become a living myth

852
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:00,720
we get we have here a golden opportunity

853
00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:04,140
of seeing how a legend is formed this

854
00:36:08,990 --> 00:36:06,150
like gave me chills when I first learned

855
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:09,000
it and heard about it because we had

856
00:36:14,329 --> 00:36:12,240
this opportunity you know Young was at

857
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:14,339
the cusp of what could become a modern

858
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:17,040
myth and you have used this throughout

859
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:18,569
your book so what exactly did you

860
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:20,730
extrapolate from this quote in reference

861
00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:25,680
to your own work so basically I see this

862
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:29,609
as what I set out to do when I realized

863
00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:32,130
that a lot of people were interpreting

864
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:34,680
their encounters and sightings as

865
00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:37,730
religious like right or spiritual I'm I

866
00:36:43,819 --> 00:36:41,430
like Carl Jung I said wow this is an

867
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:43,829
this is something unprecedented this is

868
00:36:49,490 --> 00:36:47,310
a new type of religiosity it has nothing

869
00:36:52,309 --> 00:36:49,500
to do with old types of traditional

870
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:52,319
religions and so the thing I wanted to

871
00:36:59,059 --> 00:36:56,160
convey by this book for academics was

872
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:59,069
that the digital infrastructure and this

873
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:00,900
is what Jacques understood to when he

874
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:02,310
says that the phenomena acts like a

875
00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:04,680
technology the digital infrastructure

876
00:37:10,130 --> 00:37:07,740
has created a new form of spirituality a

877
00:37:11,779 --> 00:37:10,140
new form of religion really whereas we

878
00:37:14,029 --> 00:37:11,789
have these old forms of religion

879
00:37:16,309 --> 00:37:14,039
we have basically guys who begin these

880
00:37:18,439 --> 00:37:16,319
religions like you know uh Buddha or you

881
00:37:20,209 --> 00:37:18,449
have you know you have some religions

882
00:37:22,269 --> 00:37:20,219
started by women but not not many and

883
00:37:25,639 --> 00:37:22,279
you know you have like a central figure

884
00:37:27,709 --> 00:37:25,649
Muhammad you know and then they start

885
00:37:30,739 --> 00:37:27,719
their religion but here what you have is

886
00:37:33,919 --> 00:37:30,749
you have a diffuse form of spiritual

887
00:37:36,799 --> 00:37:33,929
reality for people who talk amongst

888
00:37:38,569 --> 00:37:36,809
themselves and they it's communities of

889
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:38,579
people and there there's no hierarchy

890
00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:41,130
here I mean you know there are people

891
00:37:46,669 --> 00:37:43,529
who are experienced errs like Travis

892
00:37:48,949 --> 00:37:46,679
Walton say and you know has a a movie

893
00:37:51,199 --> 00:37:48,959
made or something like that but in but

894
00:37:53,629 --> 00:37:51,209
you know with the the contact movements

895
00:37:55,999 --> 00:37:53,639
that are but that are springing up

896
00:37:58,039 --> 00:37:56,009
through all over the globe right now you

897
00:38:00,439 --> 00:37:58,049
have this diffuse form of religion and

898
00:38:02,569 --> 00:38:00,449
spirituality that is you know going

899
00:38:04,909 --> 00:38:02,579
everywhere it's it's kind of leaky it's

900
00:38:07,879 --> 00:38:04,919
like networking and it really replicates

901
00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:07,889
the Internet it replicates technology

902
00:38:11,509 --> 00:38:09,689
even the synchronicities our

903
00:38:14,779 --> 00:38:11,519
technological you know people can have

904
00:38:16,819 --> 00:38:14,789
bought synchronicities so you know I

905
00:38:19,339 --> 00:38:16,829
really wanted to show that to people

906
00:38:22,069 --> 00:38:19,349
I also that's why I kind of kept going

907
00:38:24,739 --> 00:38:22,079
back to 2001 a Space Odyssey I wanted to

908
00:38:27,799 --> 00:38:24,749
show that well for one thing Wow Kubrick

909
00:38:29,389 --> 00:38:27,809
was insanely brilliant I don't even know

910
00:38:31,749 --> 00:38:29,399
I mean how did he know all of this back

911
00:38:34,939 --> 00:38:31,759
then I don't know I loved Robert Ayers

912
00:38:37,099 --> 00:38:34,949
interpretation of the monolith as like

913
00:38:40,249 --> 00:38:37,109
the iPhone or the screen you know and

914
00:38:44,539 --> 00:38:40,259
that you know the monolith functions as

915
00:38:48,559 --> 00:38:44,549
this alien technology and it's created a

916
00:38:51,049 --> 00:38:48,569
new form of religiosity so Carl Jung so

917
00:38:53,329 --> 00:38:51,059
I I was trying to answer a Carl Jung was

918
00:38:54,139 --> 00:38:53,339
challenge was what I was trying to do

919
00:38:57,669 --> 00:38:54,149
mm-hmm

920
00:39:00,769 --> 00:38:57,679
right and that comes in the form of I

921
00:39:04,399 --> 00:39:00,779
think technology this merging of the

922
00:39:09,799 --> 00:39:04,409
human and technology this creation of a

923
00:39:12,129 --> 00:39:09,809
myth and that really is a huge basis for

924
00:39:14,659 --> 00:39:12,139
the book a good portion of it covers

925
00:39:16,939 --> 00:39:14,669
technology contemporary media probably

926
00:39:19,849 --> 00:39:16,949
being one of the biggest ones so I'd

927
00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:19,859
love to hear your your thoughts on how

928
00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:22,380
technology plays into the global belief

929
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:23,800
of UFOs

930
00:39:31,770 --> 00:39:28,210
yes okay so the okay so the contemporary

931
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:31,780
version of this religion the the way the

932
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:34,330
way which transcendence is configured is

933
00:39:40,110 --> 00:39:37,510
through non-human intelligence right so

934
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:40,120
and it's this usually thought to be

935
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:42,130
advanced non-human intelligence and a

936
00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:45,760
lot of people have thought Susan

937
00:39:48,750 --> 00:39:47,350
Schneider at the University of

938
00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:48,760
Connecticut she's a philosopher and she

939
00:39:54,930 --> 00:39:50,860
spoken to NASA before and she says well

940
00:39:57,870 --> 00:39:54,940
if we do meaty we will meet et's

941
00:40:00,210 --> 00:39:57,880
technology we won't meet ET or ET will

942
00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:00,220
be technology right and so there's a

943
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:03,190
push for us I mean look at what we do we

944
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:04,960
send technology out to Mars you know

945
00:40:10,890 --> 00:40:07,090
we're not sending people yet out to Mars

946
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:10,900
and so if there is such an advanced

947
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:12,490
technical I mean yeah if there is such

948
00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:14,710
an advanced civilization as to already

949
00:40:19,950 --> 00:40:16,390
be observing us or meaning us or

950
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:19,960
encountering us it's going to be have

951
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:21,730
some pretty advanced technology and so

952
00:40:27,060 --> 00:40:24,850
we then that's what Carl Jung called

953
00:40:30,770 --> 00:40:27,070
that he called the Flying Saucer or the

954
00:40:34,830 --> 00:40:30,780
technological angel so that's how it

955
00:40:36,030 --> 00:40:34,840
begins and a couple of people for saw

956
00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:36,040
this you know like Martin Heidegger

957
00:40:41,910 --> 00:40:39,070
which is a philosopher I use him in my

958
00:40:43,230 --> 00:40:41,920
preface to talk to kind of frame what

959
00:40:46,020 --> 00:40:43,240
I'm going to be talking about and that's

960
00:40:47,790 --> 00:40:46,030
this relationship to technology you know

961
00:40:50,220 --> 00:40:47,800
most people think we could just put

962
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:50,230
technology down or you mean just use

963
00:40:54,030 --> 00:40:51,910
technology and put it down like a tool

964
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:54,040
but that's actually not the case I mean

965
00:40:59,820 --> 00:40:56,890
you you can't get off the crib now like

966
00:41:02,070 --> 00:40:59,830
we're immersed in a sea of frequencies

967
00:41:03,870 --> 00:41:02,080
and radiation from technology you know

968
00:41:06,570 --> 00:41:03,880
there's no way we're putting technology

969
00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:06,580
down you know so we better understand it

970
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:09,550
and I thought Jacque Jacque was on to it

971
00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:11,710
too so you know that's why I use a lot

972
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:13,120
of his work I use Martin Heidegger

973
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:15,130
it's strangely enough David Bowie so if

974
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:16,810
you ever look at David Bowie some of his

975
00:41:20,010 --> 00:41:17,950
interviews where he talks about

976
00:41:23,010 --> 00:41:20,020
technology I mean David Bowie was

977
00:41:25,230 --> 00:41:23,020
incredibly brilliant about technology

978
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:25,240
yeah you know I mean he was also you

979
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:27,250
know he's he was also look at all his

980
00:41:32,850 --> 00:41:30,850
music about Starman and you know et and

981
00:41:35,550 --> 00:41:32,860
stuff like that I mean he was a

982
00:41:37,050 --> 00:41:35,560
brilliant person who he's got such a

983
00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:37,060
great interviewer he basically is

984
00:41:39,930 --> 00:41:37,660
talking

985
00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:39,940
about technology and he says the same

986
00:41:43,049 --> 00:41:41,500
thing you know the interview he says so

987
00:41:45,690 --> 00:41:43,059
you don't think technology is a tool and

988
00:41:46,589 --> 00:41:45,700
David Boies says no no no no it's not a

989
00:41:49,049 --> 00:41:46,599
tool at all

990
00:41:52,829 --> 00:41:49,059
he says it's basically an alien

991
00:41:55,020 --> 00:41:52,839
life-form and it's beautiful so so I

992
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:55,030
used that quote actually to kind of open

993
00:41:58,559 --> 00:41:57,010
my book that in the Nietzsche quote wow

994
00:42:01,529 --> 00:41:58,569
that's so interesting I can imagine like

995
00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:01,539
Bowie sippin like a martini with Martin

996
00:42:08,579 --> 00:42:07,030
Heidegger somewhere well it also bleeds

997
00:42:09,930 --> 00:42:08,589
into this whole idea of the like you

998
00:42:12,690 --> 00:42:09,940
mentioned the coevolution but I also

999
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:12,700
like the co-creation hypothesis that

1000
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:14,410
like our mutual colleague Greg Bishop

1001
00:42:21,329 --> 00:42:17,230
talks about a lot you know this idea of

1002
00:42:24,359 --> 00:42:21,339
the alien the other creating the

1003
00:42:26,819 --> 00:42:24,369
phenomena with humans and our our

1004
00:42:29,430 --> 00:42:26,829
perception of what they are and their

1005
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:29,440
perception of us it kind of bleeds into

1006
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:31,630
this idea that technology is us and we

1007
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:34,240
are technology it's fascinating that

1008
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:36,160
everyone is kind of trying to piece this

1009
00:42:42,809 --> 00:42:40,569
puzzle together that it isn't human tool

1010
00:42:44,970 --> 00:42:42,819
you know and that we are always in

1011
00:42:47,279 --> 00:42:44,980
control of it and I never thought about

1012
00:42:50,190 --> 00:42:47,289
that like there is no way to escape

1013
00:42:52,799 --> 00:42:50,200
technology anymore and maybe there never

1014
00:42:55,319 --> 00:42:52,809
was I I don't know it's just yeah it

1015
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:55,329
blows my mind to think about that it

1016
00:42:58,650 --> 00:42:56,410
does it does

1017
00:43:01,230 --> 00:42:58,660
and so I needed to I mean it's kind of

1018
00:43:03,299 --> 00:43:01,240
like it's not intuitive for us to think

1019
00:43:05,670 --> 00:43:03,309
that way you know we're not it's not

1020
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:05,680
intuitive so I knew that I knew that my

1021
00:43:10,859 --> 00:43:08,170
book was gonna be hard to convey that

1022
00:43:13,620 --> 00:43:10,869
too which is why I used characters which

1023
00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:13,630
is why use valet and I used Tyler and I

1024
00:43:19,529 --> 00:43:16,390
use James to kind of show that we've got

1025
00:43:21,359 --> 00:43:19,539
people here if you live this reality and

1026
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:21,369
this is how we need to understand it

1027
00:43:25,529 --> 00:43:23,650
right and I think what the book does

1028
00:43:28,609 --> 00:43:25,539
well to Diana is it bridges the gap

1029
00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:28,619
between the scientific world and the

1030
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:31,750
experiencers as well yeah I mean are so

1031
00:43:38,190 --> 00:43:35,680
often so far apart that I don't know how

1032
00:43:40,220 --> 00:43:38,200
to ever marry them together at times

1033
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:40,230
like how do you bring to a scientist

1034
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:44,770
this person was possibly taken aboard a

1035
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:47,440
craft and examined or this person found

1036
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:49,690
this piece of metal in a desert

1037
00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:50,730
somewhere

1038
00:43:56,090 --> 00:43:53,430
can you have it tested no I know for a

1039
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:56,100
fact that trying to get a scientist to

1040
00:44:00,050 --> 00:43:58,170
look at possible UFO material it's not

1041
00:44:03,050 --> 00:44:00,060
as easy as people think yeah it might be

1042
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:03,060
for a scientist but their career could

1043
00:44:07,940 --> 00:44:05,010
be on the line and yes

1044
00:44:09,890 --> 00:44:07,950
Oh hard for us to find a lab here in Los

1045
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:09,900
Angeles to look at possible alien

1046
00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:12,510
materials for the investigation I was

1047
00:44:17,510 --> 00:44:15,990
doing so to bridge that gap is really

1048
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:17,520
interesting and you do that so well you

1049
00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:19,980
do cover people like Rey Hernandez and

1050
00:44:24,980 --> 00:44:22,550
his experience or Chris Bledsoe and

1051
00:44:28,070 --> 00:44:24,990
merging that into the world of science

1052
00:44:29,570 --> 00:44:28,080
and technology and belief and I think

1053
00:44:31,610 --> 00:44:29,580
that's what the book does so well and in

1054
00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:31,620
terms of books you bring up another

1055
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:33,510
thing this book encounter which is

1056
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:35,280
another thing I never have really

1057
00:44:40,010 --> 00:44:36,810
thought about could you maybe describe

1058
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:40,020
that for us yes okay this is a really

1059
00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:43,290
interesting thing that happened to every

1060
00:44:48,170 --> 00:44:45,780
person who was who was related to this

1061
00:44:51,110 --> 00:44:48,180
book and I described their book

1062
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:51,120
encounters each one of them so okay so

1063
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:53,280
this is a book encounter and by the way

1064
00:44:57,980 --> 00:44:56,010
the book encounter is also called by I

1065
00:45:00,800 --> 00:44:57,990
think it's Arthur is his first name

1066
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,810
Kessler and he's an academic from you

1067
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:02,400
know about 40 years ago and he called it

1068
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:04,500
the library angel and it's this idea

1069
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:06,330
that when you're thinking really hard

1070
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:08,010
about something and you have you know

1071
00:45:11,390 --> 00:45:09,450
something that you're emotionally really

1072
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:11,400
it's like a theoretical concept but it's

1073
00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:12,720
also emotional for you it's like a

1074
00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:14,430
spiritual dilemma or something and you

1075
00:45:17,390 --> 00:45:15,270
really want an answer

1076
00:45:19,070 --> 00:45:17,400
sometimes a book shows up and it gives

1077
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:19,080
you that answer and you're like that's

1078
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:20,640
exactly what I was thinking about or

1079
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:23,730
that's the answer and today it's a movie

1080
00:45:27,710 --> 00:45:25,230
that can you know you can see a movie

1081
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:27,720
that can really blow your mind or it

1082
00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:30,570
could be a meme you know people have

1083
00:45:35,570 --> 00:45:33,600
named encounters right and so but but

1084
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:35,580
the idea here is that it's a

1085
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:37,830
synchronicity so it's just it pops out

1086
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:40,410
at you and it's the right thing for you

1087
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:42,780
to read at the right time and you know

1088
00:45:48,140 --> 00:45:46,290
it okay so so I described everybody's

1089
00:45:50,780 --> 00:45:48,150
book encounter and I also described one

1090
00:45:53,690 --> 00:45:50,790
that I had with Frederick Nietzsche on

1091
00:45:54,980 --> 00:45:53,700
New Year's Eve and I hated honestly

1092
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:54,990
hated each his work Nietzsche is a

1093
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,170
philosopher who in the early 20th

1094
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:00,000
century he was a philosopher very very

1095
00:46:03,950 --> 00:46:01,680
well known guy right so Frederick

1096
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,960
Nietzsche the death of God kind of guy

1097
00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:06,720
that's it made that he was the first to

1098
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:08,550
say it but he was the one to really make

1099
00:46:14,740 --> 00:46:11,970
it well known and and he's kind of an

1100
00:46:18,530 --> 00:46:14,750
existentialist philosopher and

1101
00:46:21,350 --> 00:46:18,540
unfortunately it has a lot of like you

1102
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:21,360
know language that sexist and racist you

1103
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:23,850
know he's he's coming from the 1800s and

1104
00:46:29,810 --> 00:46:26,610
he's German and so he you know there's a

1105
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:29,820
lot of this part of it explains it but

1106
00:46:33,830 --> 00:46:31,890
you know I'm you know so as a young

1107
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:33,840
person reading his stuff I was really I

1108
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:35,910
couldn't stand it I put it down and my

1109
00:46:38,810 --> 00:46:37,290
friends were saying no no you got to get

1110
00:46:40,790 --> 00:46:38,820
through that because his stuff is really

1111
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:40,800
good and I said how could it be good

1112
00:46:44,810 --> 00:46:43,110
let's look at what he says and you know

1113
00:46:47,390 --> 00:46:44,820
I was just very politically correct

1114
00:46:51,590 --> 00:46:47,400
right and so I was not gonna read it so

1115
00:46:53,570 --> 00:46:51,600
I was it was nears Eve and somebody

1116
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:53,580
given me another one of his books and I

1117
00:46:56,930 --> 00:46:55,170
didn't really want it and I put it on my

1118
00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:56,940
bed stand and it was called the gay

1119
00:47:02,450 --> 00:46:59,640
science and so I placed down and it's a

1120
00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:02,460
book of aphorisms and so um you know I'm

1121
00:47:06,860 --> 00:47:04,830
a kind of a geeky young person and so I

1122
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:06,870
don't really go out and celebrate New

1123
00:47:11,270 --> 00:47:08,760
Year's Eve and so I'm trying to go to

1124
00:47:12,980 --> 00:47:11,280
bed and then you know the midnight comes

1125
00:47:15,770 --> 00:47:12,990
along and there's all kinds of revelry

1126
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:15,780
outside and so I can't sleep so I pick

1127
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:18,900
up the book and I go okay I'm I randomly

1128
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:22,710
open it and I come to his aphorism which

1129
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:25,200
is basically about New Year's Eve and he

1130
00:47:29,780 --> 00:47:27,270
basically says here it is New Year's Eve

1131
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:29,790
and he basically says you know and he

1132
00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:32,610
references a saint Saint Januarius who's

1133
00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:34,440
basically one of my favorite Saints and

1134
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:37,110
I'm like wow and so I was really hooked

1135
00:47:41,870 --> 00:47:39,090
you know it was like what a coincidence

1136
00:47:43,850 --> 00:47:41,880
and so I thought wow what's the what's

1137
00:47:45,620 --> 00:47:43,860
the likelihood of this happening and

1138
00:47:48,110 --> 00:47:45,630
he's any you know he says something that

1139
00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:48,120
was really profound he says today I'll

1140
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:50,790
never say no again I'm gonna say yes to

1141
00:47:56,570 --> 00:47:53,760
life today my blood just like Saint

1142
00:48:00,050 --> 00:47:56,580
Januarius is the Saint whose blood every

1143
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:00,060
year at at the time at the years turns

1144
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:02,880
it turns liquid I mean he's dead you

1145
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:03,930
know he's been dead for hundreds of

1146
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:05,760
years but they have a vial of his blood

1147
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:08,130
in this church in Italy's I think it's

1148
00:48:13,610 --> 00:48:11,610
in Italy and so and then it turns blood

1149
00:48:15,050 --> 00:48:13,620
like again and so I thought wow that's

1150
00:48:17,060 --> 00:48:15,060
really you know that's a cool miracle

1151
00:48:20,180 --> 00:48:17,070
and this is a

1152
00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:20,190
intense coincidence and I turn the page

1153
00:48:25,730 --> 00:48:22,920
and he talked about coincidences and he

1154
00:48:27,860 --> 00:48:25,740
basically says haha you know you've had

1155
00:48:29,450 --> 00:48:27,870
these coincidences but you're a fool if

1156
00:48:32,060 --> 00:48:29,460
you believe them kind of thing and I'm

1157
00:48:34,490 --> 00:48:32,070
like what and so I was like you know if

1158
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:34,500
he then he became a really intriguing

1159
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:36,960
author for me and I I consumed

1160
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:38,850
everything that he wrote and now I'm a

1161
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:40,680
big fan of his so that's the book

1162
00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:42,060
encounter the book encounter is this

1163
00:48:47,630 --> 00:48:45,300
thing where a person maybe has an

1164
00:48:48,860 --> 00:48:47,640
experience they don't want to call a UFO

1165
00:48:50,780 --> 00:48:48,870
experience they don't want to be that

1166
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:50,790
person and then they go on the internet

1167
00:48:55,730 --> 00:48:52,890
or they they pick up a book or something

1168
00:48:58,550 --> 00:48:55,740
and that book explains to them what

1169
00:49:00,670 --> 00:48:58,560
they've liked ray Hernandez had like I

1170
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:00,680
think was like a week-long immersion

1171
00:49:06,380 --> 00:49:03,390
immersion book experience after he went

1172
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:06,390
through his encounters yeah so that's

1173
00:49:10,610 --> 00:49:07,710
what that is and it sounds like you've

1174
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:10,620
probably had these two yeah for sure I

1175
00:49:16,070 --> 00:49:14,010
mean when you're when you're UFO library

1176
00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:16,080
outweighs everything else in your life

1177
00:49:20,180 --> 00:49:18,150
in terms of when you have to move it

1178
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:20,190
across the country you know you're gonna

1179
00:49:27,350 --> 00:49:25,260
have a book encounter and I think that's

1180
00:49:29,060 --> 00:49:27,360
really interesting this idea of the

1181
00:49:32,180 --> 00:49:29,070
meaning we give to coincidence or

1182
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:32,190
synchronicity or even a UFO event and

1183
00:49:38,300 --> 00:49:34,890
meaning plays such a large role in a UFO

1184
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:38,310
event that is what I do in terms of yes

1185
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:42,090
my personal research this interpretation

1186
00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:44,490
of a UFO encounter how it will play a

1187
00:49:49,310 --> 00:49:46,800
role in the rest of the observers life

1188
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:49,320
and I found this really interesting in

1189
00:49:54,380 --> 00:49:51,890
your book you call this a implicit Orion

1190
00:49:56,810 --> 00:49:54,390
interpretation so could you sort of

1191
00:50:01,280 --> 00:49:56,820
explain this concept to us in terms of a

1192
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:01,290
UFO event yes so what I did in order to

1193
00:50:05,420 --> 00:50:03,810
understand how people interpret and you

1194
00:50:07,340 --> 00:50:05,430
do such a great job by the way of

1195
00:50:09,590 --> 00:50:07,350
focusing on people and how what the

1196
00:50:11,810 --> 00:50:09,600
meaning is for them and I love that your

1197
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:11,820
books regarding that and your work

1198
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:15,330
regarding that so when I went back to

1199
00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:17,910
try to understand how people make these

1200
00:50:23,540 --> 00:50:21,390
interpretations I used I used some

1201
00:50:26,780 --> 00:50:23,550
cognitive science so I used ant Aves

1202
00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:26,790
work and she's a scholar of religion I

1203
00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:29,460
Santa Barbara UC Santa Barbara and she

1204
00:50:34,069 --> 00:50:30,900
has written a book called

1205
00:50:36,319 --> 00:50:34,079
experience revisited I believe and she

1206
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:36,329
basically talks about the processes

1207
00:50:42,079 --> 00:50:39,450
involved in interpreting and experiences

1208
00:50:44,539 --> 00:50:42,089
so she basically says this she says you

1209
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,549
have an experience right but it's not

1210
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:46,559
yet a religious experience or it's not

1211
00:50:51,799 --> 00:50:49,200
yet an UFO experience it becomes that

1212
00:50:54,049 --> 00:50:51,809
and she's interested in how it becomes

1213
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:54,059
that and what I did is I went back to

1214
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,710
cognitive science and I looked at

1215
00:51:01,130 --> 00:50:58,079
neuroscientist Jeffrey Zacks work with

1216
00:51:03,170 --> 00:51:01,140
media and I tried to show that when

1217
00:51:05,329 --> 00:51:03,180
people have these experiences they don't

1218
00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:05,339
they're confused like Chris blessa was

1219
00:51:10,430 --> 00:51:07,049
very confused because you know he'd been

1220
00:51:11,809 --> 00:51:10,440
raised a Southern Baptist and he had

1221
00:51:14,029 --> 00:51:11,819
these experiences and it really

1222
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:14,039
shattered his reality his religious

1223
00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:17,010
reality and he went to the internet and

1224
00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:20,339
decided that this was probably a UFO

1225
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:21,630
experience but he didn't quite

1226
00:51:27,470 --> 00:51:24,210
understand how it was also religious for

1227
00:51:29,630 --> 00:51:27,480
him so then I got to actually see him up

1228
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:29,640
close go through that interpretive

1229
00:51:35,839 --> 00:51:32,130
process of experiencing this as a

1230
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:35,849
religious UFO experience and so so

1231
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:37,980
that's what that means this is a union

1232
00:51:43,069 --> 00:51:41,730
term you know that we amplify some some

1233
00:51:46,250 --> 00:51:43,079
things over other things you know

1234
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:46,260
interpretation so media Prime's us to

1235
00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:48,000
when we you know oh oh I'm gonna give

1236
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:49,529
you some examples since you're past like

1237
00:51:54,769 --> 00:51:51,630
from Catholic history so you know st.

1238
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:54,779
Francis of Assisi right so okay so st.

1239
00:51:59,870 --> 00:51:57,210
Francis of Assisi is with one of his

1240
00:52:03,620 --> 00:51:59,880
friends brother vo and they're out and

1241
00:52:05,059 --> 00:52:03,630
it's the guardian angel it's the it's

1242
00:52:06,980 --> 00:52:05,069
the feast of the guardian angels and

1243
00:52:10,819 --> 00:52:06,990
they're on a mountain and they're doing

1244
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:10,829
their praying and then a Sarah shows up

1245
00:52:17,420 --> 00:52:15,119
in the sky and comes down and gives

1246
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:17,430
Saint Francis the winds of Christ which

1247
00:52:21,319 --> 00:52:19,200
are called the stigmata and for those of

1248
00:52:23,329 --> 00:52:21,329
your audience who are not Catholic these

1249
00:52:26,359 --> 00:52:23,339
are those holes in people's hands that

1250
00:52:28,220 --> 00:52:26,369
look like they've bent now they have the

1251
00:52:31,309 --> 00:52:28,230
wounds of Christ and on their hands and

1252
00:52:32,690 --> 00:52:31,319
it's put their bloody and they don't

1253
00:52:33,620 --> 00:52:32,700
they're they look like they heard a lot

1254
00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:33,630
right so it looks like you've been

1255
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:34,260
nailed to a cross

1256
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:38,010
okay so st. Francis it's supposedly the

1257
00:52:42,349 --> 00:52:40,170
first person to have the stigmata so

1258
00:52:45,250 --> 00:52:42,359
okay so it's called the stigmata alright

1259
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:45,260
so there we have that story

1260
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:49,290
students of wine will go to the Vatican

1261
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:51,930
or we'll go to Italy Florence and go to

1262
00:52:56,030 --> 00:52:54,240
museums and and see paintings you know

1263
00:52:59,090 --> 00:52:56,040
there are so many paintings of that

1264
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:59,100
event and they'll see a UFO they'll see

1265
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:00,960
you know there's Sara looking like a UFO

1266
00:53:06,650 --> 00:53:03,990
zapping Saint Francis and so you know I

1267
00:53:08,540 --> 00:53:06,660
like 50 years ago Catholics were like oh

1268
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:08,550
this is an angel and this is the the

1269
00:53:12,260 --> 00:53:10,170
holy wounds of Christ whereas my

1270
00:53:13,580 --> 00:53:12,270
students even Catholic ones they they

1271
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:13,590
take a picture of it and they send it

1272
00:53:18,590 --> 00:53:15,690
back to me invariably this happens all

1273
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:18,600
the time and they say doctor Basilica is

1274
00:53:22,310 --> 00:53:20,940
this a UFO event and I think it's really

1275
00:53:25,070 --> 00:53:22,320
funny because you know they basically

1276
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:25,080
their interpretation is different than

1277
00:53:29,390 --> 00:53:27,090
their grandparents interpretation but

1278
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:29,400
let me say more about this because I

1279
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:32,610
think it's it's interesting when I first

1280
00:53:36,590 --> 00:53:34,770
had the thought that my book on

1281
00:53:40,670 --> 00:53:36,600
purgatory was similar to some of this

1282
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:40,680
current stuff I actually reread a lot of

1283
00:53:44,750 --> 00:53:42,720
the primary sources in Catholic history

1284
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:44,760
that were really strange and that was

1285
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:47,520
one of them so I reread the st. Francis

1286
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:50,640
event which was written by brother Leo

1287
00:53:58,130 --> 00:53:55,520
and I showed it to a friend who is a

1288
00:53:59,960 --> 00:53:58,140
person who studies aerial phenomena

1289
00:54:03,200 --> 00:53:59,970
totally unfamiliar with Catholic

1290
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:03,210
tradition and a totally unfamiliar even

1291
00:54:06,410 --> 00:54:05,370
with st. Francis and I showed it to him

1292
00:54:08,210 --> 00:54:06,420
and I said what do you think of this and

1293
00:54:08,860 --> 00:54:08,220
he said oh well that definitely looks

1294
00:54:12,980 --> 00:54:08,870
like

1295
00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:12,990
coming down through the the atmosphere

1296
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:16,110
making a specific type of light in the

1297
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:18,950
sky and these you know most likely

1298
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:22,410
hurting that person and these are

1299
00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:24,930
radiation burns and in fact st. Francis

1300
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:27,900
dies from these burns so that's

1301
00:54:30,830 --> 00:54:29,310
something that we don't know yeah so

1302
00:54:32,990 --> 00:54:30,840
when you go back to the sources you're

1303
00:54:36,650 --> 00:54:33,000
like wow that's weird

1304
00:54:39,470 --> 00:54:36,660
another one is Teresa of ávila I don't

1305
00:54:42,050 --> 00:54:39,480
know if you're familiar with her ecstasy

1306
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:42,060
of st. Teresa she's a very famous statue

1307
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:45,690
by Bernini in Rome and you look at it

1308
00:54:53,630 --> 00:54:49,110
and it's basically this woman who was a

1309
00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:53,640
Catholic nun and she's there's a little

1310
00:54:58,220 --> 00:54:56,520
tiny angel beside her and it has a dart

1311
00:54:58,609 --> 00:54:58,230
it looks like a dart okay and it's

1312
00:55:00,769 --> 00:54:58,619
called the

1313
00:55:02,299 --> 00:55:00,779
you see of st. Teresa again I looked at

1314
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:02,309
that and I thought I'm gonna read the

1315
00:55:05,749 --> 00:55:04,170
source on that one you know and she

1316
00:55:07,339 --> 00:55:05,759
actually writes it in her book you can

1317
00:55:09,499 --> 00:55:07,349
actually buy her autobiography and she

1318
00:55:11,839 --> 00:55:09,509
actually tells you what happens during

1319
00:55:14,900 --> 00:55:11,849
that time and what's interesting is that

1320
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:14,910
what she says doesn't it all look like

1321
00:55:20,329 --> 00:55:18,930
the statue so what she says is and I

1322
00:55:24,259 --> 00:55:20,339
actually have published about this too

1323
00:55:28,219 --> 00:55:24,269
what she says is very odd so she's you

1324
00:55:29,529 --> 00:55:28,229
know she's a nun she's not you know

1325
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:29,539
she's not at this point in her life

1326
00:55:33,499 --> 00:55:31,890
particularly holy or anything like that

1327
00:55:36,410 --> 00:55:33,509
she's just you know she's a wealthy

1328
00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:36,420
woman who's a nun a lot of wealthy women

1329
00:55:41,779 --> 00:55:39,569
became nuns and so she says that if she

1330
00:55:44,959 --> 00:55:41,789
ever did see angels they were in her

1331
00:55:47,390 --> 00:55:44,969
imagination right so but this time an

1332
00:55:49,219 --> 00:55:47,400
angel appears next to her and it's

1333
00:55:51,259 --> 00:55:49,229
really short it's like you know about

1334
00:55:53,779 --> 00:55:51,269
two and a half or three feet tall and

1335
00:55:55,249 --> 00:55:53,789
it's really really shiny and in fact

1336
00:55:56,539 --> 00:55:55,259
she's not even sure it's an angel she

1337
00:55:59,569 --> 00:55:56,549
doesn't even know what it is and then

1338
00:56:01,819 --> 00:55:59,579
she decides okay maybe it's a cherub so

1339
00:56:03,940 --> 00:56:01,829
she doesn't even know what it is then it

1340
00:56:07,459 --> 00:56:03,950
all of a sudden takes out this long

1341
00:56:09,140 --> 00:56:07,469
stick thing with with white at the end

1342
00:56:11,150 --> 00:56:09,150
of it and it basically does an

1343
00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:11,160
examination of her okay this sounds

1344
00:56:17,950 --> 00:56:13,529
familiar to me yeah exactly

1345
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:17,960
so when I reread that I thought wow so I

1346
00:56:22,219 --> 00:56:19,920
I'm gonna tell this story

1347
00:56:24,979 --> 00:56:22,229
so I said two key jeff kraebel and Jeff

1348
00:56:28,489 --> 00:56:24,989
said well I didn't actually send that

1349
00:56:31,609 --> 00:56:28,499
yet to him I said Theresa basically had

1350
00:56:34,009 --> 00:56:31,619
what looks like a UFO experience and in

1351
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:34,019
the John Mack style and he wrote me back

1352
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:35,249
and he said that's ridiculous

1353
00:56:40,039 --> 00:56:37,890
he said no no I did my master's thesis

1354
00:56:42,019 --> 00:56:40,049
on Theresa in fact I'm looking at a

1355
00:56:45,859 --> 00:56:42,029
picture of her right now in my study and

1356
00:56:47,269 --> 00:56:45,869
so I said okay just wait and so i lated

1357
00:56:48,859 --> 00:56:47,279
it because i had found it in spanish i

1358
00:56:51,829 --> 00:56:48,869
translated the document and sent it to

1359
00:56:53,779 --> 00:56:51,839
him and he like he was freaked out he

1360
00:56:55,940 --> 00:56:53,789
wrote me back and he said wow he said

1361
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:55,950
okay so basically we have to look at the

1362
00:57:01,400 --> 00:56:57,599
whole cast of tradition and I said yeah

1363
00:57:04,339 --> 00:57:01,410
it's it's UFOs all the way down all the

1364
00:57:06,499 --> 00:57:04,349
way down to the Vatican and that's sort

1365
00:57:09,529 --> 00:57:06,509
of what I want to wrap up in terms of

1366
00:57:11,930 --> 00:57:09,539
your your journey so we go from you

1367
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:11,940
blindfolded in a desert all the way up

1368
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:12,450
to

1369
00:57:20,900 --> 00:57:17,850
Vatican so how did this come about what

1370
00:57:22,430 --> 00:57:20,910
did you find most important about going

1371
00:57:24,890 --> 00:57:22,440
to the Vatican and how did that shape

1372
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:24,900
your book so that's a really good

1373
00:57:29,690 --> 00:57:26,160
question actually

1374
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:29,700
my vatican research was my book was

1375
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:31,770
actually done at that point ryan so I

1376
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:33,690
thought I thought my book was done I get

1377
00:57:39,020 --> 00:57:35,250
I gave it to my editor it was all

1378
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:39,030
finished and then I had there was a

1379
00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:41,040
Catholic philanthropist who was

1380
00:57:46,580 --> 00:57:43,670
interested in levitating Saints and

1381
00:57:48,050 --> 00:57:46,590
they'd asked me to go to the Vatican to

1382
00:57:49,490 --> 00:57:48,060
look at you know because because not

1383
00:57:51,380 --> 00:57:49,500
everybody can actually get into the

1384
00:57:53,090 --> 00:57:51,390
Vatican archive you have to have the

1385
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:53,100
credentials you have to be a scholar of

1386
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:54,570
Catholicism you have to have written a

1387
00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:56,130
book you have to be at a tent you know

1388
00:57:59,750 --> 00:57:58,020
you have to be tenured at a university

1389
00:58:01,850 --> 00:57:59,760
this kind of thing so I had those

1390
00:58:03,740 --> 00:58:01,860
credentials and so they said can you go

1391
00:58:07,010 --> 00:58:03,750
it with there and look at these

1392
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:07,020
manuscripts and tell us why some of

1393
00:58:12,020 --> 00:58:09,690
these Saints were Canon dice and some of

1394
00:58:13,340 --> 00:58:12,030
them were not and so you know so there

1395
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:13,350
were two Saints we were gonna look at I

1396
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:14,610
was gonna look at I was gonna look at

1397
00:58:20,030 --> 00:58:16,770
Joseph of Cupertino who is said to have

1398
00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:20,040
levitated and Mary of Agreda as they

1399
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:22,950
were both from the same era and white

1400
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:25,890
Italian Cupertino and the other Spanish

1401
00:58:31,220 --> 00:58:29,250
and so they asked me just tell us you

1402
00:58:32,330 --> 00:58:31,230
know if you can you know no pressure

1403
00:58:34,310 --> 00:58:32,340
here why

1404
00:58:37,100 --> 00:58:34,320
once canonized and the other is not and

1405
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:37,110
I said yes I can do that in the meantime

1406
00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:39,930
I always I had just finished this book

1407
00:58:44,930 --> 00:58:41,970
and I thought of all people who could

1408
00:58:47,810 --> 00:58:44,940
help me understand levitation and this

1409
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:47,820
kind of stuff it would be Tyler so I

1410
00:58:52,940 --> 00:58:50,640
said to the people who funding the trip

1411
00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:52,950
I said I want to take this guy and I

1412
00:58:56,750 --> 00:58:54,960
kind of showed his CV to them you know

1413
00:59:00,140 --> 00:58:56,760
his resume and and they said by all

1414
00:59:02,540 --> 00:59:00,150
means and so we went and he got there

1415
00:59:04,820 --> 00:59:02,550
before I did we took different planes so

1416
00:59:07,460 --> 00:59:04,830
he so he was there before me now he's

1417
00:59:09,110 --> 00:59:07,470
not Catholic and we weren't even sure he

1418
00:59:10,790 --> 00:59:09,120
could get into the archives to tell you

1419
00:59:13,070 --> 00:59:10,800
the truth so he had and I had already

1420
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:13,080
spent a year telling them I was coming

1421
00:59:16,430 --> 00:59:14,730
what I needed what I was looking for you

1422
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:16,440
know because it actually takes the

1423
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:18,210
Vatican is pretty darn old-fashioned

1424
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:20,490
right so it takes a long time to do all

1425
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:22,690
the paperwork you go you if you go

1426
00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:25,119
all the way over there you want to see

1427
00:59:31,099 --> 00:59:26,470
what you want to see you know they have

1428
00:59:33,420 --> 00:59:31,109
miles of of stuff right so anyway and

1429
00:59:34,910 --> 00:59:33,430
he's there first so Tyler's there first

1430
00:59:37,230 --> 00:59:34,920
he's trying to get in through the

1431
00:59:39,870 --> 00:59:37,240
various you have to have there's three

1432
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:39,880
stations to get in and he can't get

1433
00:59:43,980 --> 00:59:42,130
through the first station and so he's

1434
00:59:46,109 --> 00:59:43,990
texting me while I'm flying he's saying

1435
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:46,119
what do I do you know how what do I do

1436
00:59:50,010 --> 00:59:48,010
now and I said gosh I'm not sure maybe

1437
00:59:52,349 --> 00:59:50,020
wait till I get there and he said well

1438
00:59:54,540 --> 00:59:52,359
why don't he just show them you know my

1439
00:59:56,069 --> 00:59:54,550
card Who I am and I was like thinking I

1440
00:59:57,630 --> 00:59:56,079
don't think that's a good idea because

1441
01:00:00,000 --> 00:59:57,640
we don't really want to create suspicion

1442
01:00:01,620 --> 01:00:00,010
and plus it probably's not it won't work

1443
01:00:04,140 --> 01:00:01,630
but he seemed too convinced that it

1444
01:00:07,079 --> 01:00:04,150
would work so I said go ahead so he did

1445
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:07,089
and he dropped something on the floor

1446
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:09,490
and he he bent down and he said when he

1447
01:00:14,730 --> 01:00:11,650
looked up he could see his face on their

1448
01:00:16,770 --> 01:00:14,740
computer so they instantly brought him

1449
01:00:19,710 --> 01:00:16,780
up and I guess what happened

1450
01:00:22,290 --> 01:00:19,720
was that because the Vatican is an ally

1451
01:00:24,329 --> 01:00:22,300
of the United States he was accepted and

1452
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:24,339
so they said ok no problem you're in so

1453
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:25,720
he didn't have to go through the other

1454
01:00:31,710 --> 01:00:29,050
process while he was there he met this

1455
01:00:34,650 --> 01:00:31,720
priest and this priest was really

1456
01:00:38,730 --> 01:00:34,660
helpful he's an American guy and he

1457
01:00:40,380 --> 01:00:38,740
helped us while we were there we had you

1458
01:00:42,780 --> 01:00:40,390
know we so we went to the Vatican

1459
01:00:45,809 --> 01:00:42,790
archive and we looked at those documents

1460
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:45,819
and then we went to the space archive

1461
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:48,250
which is not at the Vatican secret

1462
01:00:53,069 --> 01:00:50,170
archives but it's about an hour and a

1463
01:00:55,319 --> 01:00:53,079
half up in the mountains at Castle

1464
01:00:57,059 --> 01:00:55,329
Gandolfo and it's the papal summer

1465
01:00:59,760 --> 01:00:57,069
residence there and they have that's

1466
01:01:02,760 --> 01:00:59,770
where brother guy Consolmagno resides

1467
01:01:04,380 --> 01:01:02,770
mostly there's also us and are not an

1468
01:01:06,359 --> 01:01:04,390
archive but there's an observatory in

1469
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:06,369
Arizona as well owned by the Vatican

1470
01:01:10,589 --> 01:01:08,530
but the archive of all the space

1471
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:10,599
research is there and I really wanted to

1472
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:13,920
look at that so so we went up there and

1473
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:16,480
we got to look at all kinds of stuff I

1474
01:01:21,540 --> 01:01:18,010
got to look at they have a whole section

1475
01:01:24,690 --> 01:01:21,550
on extraterrestrial intelligent life and

1476
01:01:26,849 --> 01:01:24,700
everything and so yeah it was amazing so

1477
01:01:29,339 --> 01:01:26,859
we spent that was the best time for me

1478
01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:29,349
was not necessarily in Rome but at the

1479
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:33,160
space archive and talking to the priests

1480
01:01:36,660 --> 01:01:34,690
and brothers they're all astronomers

1481
01:01:39,569 --> 01:01:36,670
astrophysicists and stuff

1482
01:01:41,190 --> 01:01:39,579
and it was it was amazing and while we

1483
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:41,200
were there there was a weird

1484
01:01:46,530 --> 01:01:44,170
synchronicity I was um I was just doing

1485
01:01:49,319 --> 01:01:46,540
some work and I realized that that one

1486
01:01:52,890 --> 01:01:49,329
sister sister Mary of Agreda from Spain

1487
01:01:55,530 --> 01:01:52,900
she said that she had by located to New

1488
01:01:57,150 --> 01:01:55,540
Mexico right and I thought well if it

1489
01:01:59,579 --> 01:01:57,160
did happen or didn't happen that's not

1490
01:02:02,520 --> 01:01:59,589
my question to answer but it sure is a

1491
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:02,530
strange synchronicity and I looked at

1492
01:02:07,230 --> 01:02:05,170
Tyler and I said you know sister Maria

1493
01:02:08,789 --> 01:02:07,240
went to New Mexico and he kind of got

1494
01:02:10,890 --> 01:02:08,799
this weird look on his face and I said

1495
01:02:14,579 --> 01:02:10,900
did she happen to go to the place where

1496
01:02:16,319 --> 01:02:14,589
we went to we went and so he wasn't

1497
01:02:19,140 --> 01:02:16,329
gonna answer the question but he looked

1498
01:02:20,849 --> 01:02:19,150
pretty weird about it and I think it

1499
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,859
both freaked us out we're like wow and

1500
01:02:25,289 --> 01:02:22,960
then I realized too that that was my

1501
01:02:27,690 --> 01:02:25,299
last chapter of the book and so I had to

1502
01:02:30,329 --> 01:02:27,700
break the news to my editor so I took a

1503
01:02:32,700 --> 01:02:30,339
really cool picture of brother guy with

1504
01:02:34,079 --> 01:02:32,710
his large telescope and I sent it to her

1505
01:02:35,460 --> 01:02:34,089
and I said hey look at this picture and

1506
01:02:37,980 --> 01:02:35,470
she said oh I love that and I said hey

1507
01:02:39,089 --> 01:02:37,990
by the way can I write last chapter like

1508
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:39,099
oh okay

1509
01:02:46,349 --> 01:02:43,210
yeah and I mean thank God literally

1510
01:02:48,839 --> 01:02:46,359
thank God that this chapter came to be

1511
01:02:51,030 --> 01:02:48,849
because I think it really does kind of

1512
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:51,040
encompass everything you set out to do

1513
01:02:57,599 --> 01:02:54,640
in terms of mixing religion with this

1514
01:02:59,510 --> 01:02:57,609
belief in UFOs and that UFOs can be

1515
01:03:01,710 --> 01:02:59,520
considered a new religion and

1516
01:03:04,260 --> 01:03:01,720
implementing technology into that as

1517
01:03:07,289 --> 01:03:04,270
well it's just this constant sphere of

1518
01:03:09,450 --> 01:03:07,299
everything together and everyone is

1519
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:09,460
going to interpret it differently and I

1520
01:03:14,010 --> 01:03:11,290
think that's the beauty of both the

1521
01:03:16,890 --> 01:03:14,020
human mind and how its influenced by

1522
01:03:18,599 --> 01:03:16,900
everything around us and what that's my

1523
01:03:21,870 --> 01:03:18,609
observation at least an hour what is

1524
01:03:23,849 --> 01:03:21,880
your observation of this book you've

1525
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:23,859
been working on for so long what do you

1526
01:03:30,270 --> 01:03:26,890
want readers to take away from it well

1527
01:03:32,099 --> 01:03:30,280
for me it was a surprising I guess you

1528
01:03:33,450 --> 01:03:32,109
know when you set out to do something

1529
01:03:37,530 --> 01:03:33,460
you have an idea of what it should be

1530
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:37,540
and if you're really lucky it it it

1531
01:03:41,789 --> 01:03:39,970
becomes alive and it teaches you and

1532
01:03:44,700 --> 01:03:41,799
that's what this book did to me so this

1533
01:03:47,010 --> 01:03:44,710
book became something apart for me and I

1534
01:03:49,890 --> 01:03:47,020
just basically tried to keep up with it

1535
01:03:50,510 --> 01:03:49,900
so like I said you know it I thought it

1536
01:03:51,980 --> 01:03:50,520
was done at

1537
01:03:54,140 --> 01:03:51,990
point and it wasn't and you know the

1538
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:54,150
book became its own entity almost and

1539
01:03:57,980 --> 01:03:56,010
wrote itself and I was basically there

1540
01:03:59,960 --> 01:03:57,990
to kind of put it in place with all the

1541
01:04:02,860 --> 01:03:59,970
tools of my trade which are religious

1542
01:04:05,810 --> 01:04:02,870
studies or is religious studies and so

1543
01:04:08,330 --> 01:04:05,820
what I what I want people to take away

1544
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:08,340
from it is that I want people to

1545
01:04:15,230 --> 01:04:12,450
understand first that that UFO belief is

1546
01:04:16,340 --> 01:04:15,240
not fringe right I mean enough people

1547
01:04:18,590 --> 01:04:16,350
believe in it now too

1548
01:04:20,450 --> 01:04:18,600
for it to be something that worthy of

1549
01:04:22,790 --> 01:04:20,460
study so I wanted to kind of bring it

1550
01:04:24,350 --> 01:04:22,800
into the mainstream and say it's you

1551
01:04:27,140 --> 01:04:24,360
know listen this happens so often that

1552
01:04:28,820 --> 01:04:27,150
it's not weird you know don't you know

1553
01:04:30,350 --> 01:04:28,830
it's if you can see weird things and

1554
01:04:32,810 --> 01:04:30,360
things these things can happen and

1555
01:04:34,610 --> 01:04:32,820
you're okay you know and so that's one

1556
01:04:37,550 --> 01:04:34,620
thing and I also wanted people to know

1557
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:37,560
that there are top-level scientists

1558
01:04:44,180 --> 01:04:40,850
working on things that they believe are

1559
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:44,190
advanced technology from another world I

1560
01:04:47,870 --> 01:04:46,290
don't know what world that is and they

1561
01:04:49,550 --> 01:04:47,880
believe and they are actually making

1562
01:04:51,980 --> 01:04:49,560
technology from it so there's real

1563
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:51,990
technologies coming from these whether

1564
01:04:56,330 --> 01:04:54,210
it's true or not Ryan this is what they

1565
01:04:57,710 --> 01:04:56,340
believe and that and I thought that was

1566
01:05:01,730 --> 01:04:57,720
fascinating because that's part of the

1567
01:05:02,990 --> 01:05:01,740
UFO culture that to me surprised me most

1568
01:05:07,250 --> 01:05:03,000
you know because I was talking with

1569
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:07,260
people that were you know top level

1570
01:05:13,100 --> 01:05:10,530
Silicon Valley presences you know with

1571
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:13,110
companies and kind of everyday people

1572
01:05:16,850 --> 01:05:14,250
that you know you want to hang out with

1573
01:05:18,830 --> 01:05:16,860
and and they this is this is their

1574
01:05:21,110 --> 01:05:18,840
belief system so I thought you know I

1575
01:05:23,630 --> 01:05:21,120
wanted people to know about it so that's

1576
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:23,640
what I read about yes the days of UFO

1577
01:05:32,300 --> 01:05:26,330
gooks seem to be disappearing think

1578
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:32,310
definitely yeah it's so amazing Diana

1579
01:05:35,810 --> 01:05:33,930
that this is coming around now because I

1580
01:05:38,630 --> 01:05:35,820
do think that the UFO topic in general

1581
01:05:42,350 --> 01:05:38,640
is becoming more normalized than ever

1582
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:42,360
this to the Stars syndrome as I've sort

1583
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:46,170
of coined it as of late so I can't thank

1584
01:05:50,420 --> 01:05:48,450
you enough for coming on for giving us

1585
01:05:53,630 --> 01:05:50,430
so much information about the book so

1586
01:05:56,180 --> 01:05:53,640
where can we find it and we will have a

1587
01:05:57,740 --> 01:05:56,190
discount code for listeners of someone

1588
01:05:59,300 --> 01:05:57,750
the skies that I'm going to do after

1589
01:06:01,310 --> 01:05:59,310
this interview so stick around for that

1590
01:06:01,789 --> 01:06:01,320
but where can we find the book and in

1591
01:06:05,329 --> 01:06:01,799
what

1592
01:06:06,979 --> 01:06:05,339
can we find it oh sure okay so um again

1593
01:06:09,410 --> 01:06:06,989
this was something I had no control over

1594
01:06:12,620 --> 01:06:09,420
but the book was scheduled to be out and

1595
01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:12,630
then somehow it it got postponed and

1596
01:06:17,569 --> 01:06:14,160
then postponed again but it's finally

1597
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:17,579
out and your listeners can get it at

1598
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:20,130
Oxford University Press website if they

1599
01:06:25,069 --> 01:06:22,650
talk type in Oxford University Press

1600
01:06:27,380 --> 01:06:25,079
American cosmic in my name it'll come up

1601
01:06:28,969 --> 01:06:27,390
and if they use that code only at that

1602
01:06:32,150 --> 01:06:28,979
website will they get that 30 percent

1603
01:06:35,539 --> 01:06:32,160
off but it's also available from Amazon

1604
01:06:37,549 --> 01:06:35,549
and Barnes and Noble and can is there

1605
01:06:39,199 --> 01:06:37,559
are there's a Kindle version as well and

1606
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:39,209
the Kindle version is out so I know

1607
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:41,039
people that have started reading it and

1608
01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:43,170
so I think it's just in the last two or

1609
01:06:47,809 --> 01:06:45,569
three days it's come out awesome

1610
01:06:51,229 --> 01:06:47,819
well it has been highly anticipated by

1611
01:06:53,209 --> 01:06:51,239
many UFO researchers as soon as we knew

1612
01:06:55,669 --> 01:06:53,219
you were writing it and it's for one

1613
01:06:57,709 --> 01:06:55,679
reason in my opinion we want new

1614
01:07:01,219 --> 01:06:57,719
perspectives and we want contributions

1615
01:07:03,739 --> 01:07:01,229
to the UFO field that can I guess sort

1616
01:07:06,709 --> 01:07:03,749
of enable a conversation that some are

1617
01:07:09,259 --> 01:07:06,719
afraid to confront and at the end of the

1618
01:07:11,569 --> 01:07:09,269
day this isn't about aliens or God or

1619
01:07:14,509 --> 01:07:11,579
possibly even UFOs it's about us

1620
01:07:16,459 --> 01:07:14,519
you know our future and what that UFO

1621
01:07:19,219 --> 01:07:16,469
what it represents you know as we move

1622
01:07:21,890 --> 01:07:19,229
forward and I can't wait to see where

1623
01:07:24,109 --> 01:07:21,900
your research propels you after the book

1624
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:24,119
comes out and people start reading it so

1625
01:07:28,219 --> 01:07:26,640
thank you so much for coming on for

1626
01:07:30,439 --> 01:07:28,229
talking about all of this today on

1627
01:07:31,999 --> 01:07:30,449
someone the skies with me oh my pleasure

1628
01:07:35,599 --> 01:07:32,009
Brian it was wonderful to be on your

1629
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:35,609
show thank you that's it for this weeks

1630
01:07:40,699 --> 01:07:37,890
episode listeners can now receive a

1631
01:07:43,429 --> 01:07:40,709
discount on American cosmic by ordering

1632
01:07:45,049 --> 01:07:43,439
directly through Oxford University Press

1633
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:45,059
be sure to follow the link in the show

1634
01:07:52,039 --> 01:07:49,650
notes and use the promo code AAF ly g6

1635
01:07:54,670 --> 01:07:52,049
that check out the book is also

1636
01:07:56,890 --> 01:07:54,680
available as an e-book and proof

1637
01:07:58,840 --> 01:07:56,900
and zone to learn more about the book

1638
01:08:02,020 --> 01:07:58,850
and all of Diana's worth be sure to

1639
01:08:04,210 --> 01:08:02,030
visit American cosmic comm please take a

1640
01:08:06,670 --> 01:08:04,220
few moments to subscribe rate and review

1641
01:08:09,220 --> 01:08:06,680
summer in the skies on Apple podcasts

1642
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:09,230
the largest podcast platform in the

1643
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:10,090
world

1644
01:08:14,590 --> 01:08:12,290
subscriptions bump us up in the search

1645
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:14,600
engines and can get us feature on the

1646
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:17,810
top lists thank you in advance we're on

1647
01:08:23,290 --> 01:08:20,090
Twitter at summer skies and Instagram at

1648
01:08:26,890 --> 01:08:23,300
summer skies Polly the store is at T

1649
01:08:28,060 --> 01:08:26,900
public calm best eee public duck just

1650
01:08:30,940 --> 01:08:28,070
search for the somewhere in the skies

1651
01:08:32,410 --> 01:08:30,950
story we are featuring some opossum UFO

1652
01:08:34,170 --> 01:08:32,420
merch over there right now so please

1653
01:08:38,350 --> 01:08:34,180
check it out

1654
01:08:41,410 --> 01:08:38,360
patreon.com/scishow find all bonus

1655
01:08:44,050 --> 01:08:41,420
episodes and rewards so please consider

1656
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:44,060
becoming a subscriber today and help the

1657
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:46,010
show out and get some awesome stuff in

1658
01:08:51,820 --> 01:08:48,290
return my thanks as always goes to the

1659
01:08:54,490 --> 01:08:51,830
e1 podcast network kgr a radio rogue

1660
01:08:56,380 --> 01:08:54,500
planet and most importantly to you for

1661
01:08:58,690 --> 01:08:56,390
listening I'll see you here next week

1662
01:09:00,670 --> 01:08:58,700
and remember keep your feet on the

1663
01:09:02,300 --> 01:09:00,680
ground but never stop searching

1664
01:09:42,099 --> 01:09:02,310
somewhere in the skies

1665
01:09:45,099 --> 01:09:42,109
[Music]

1666
01:09:47,540 --> 01:09:45,109
[Applause]

1667
01:09:49,310 --> 01:09:47,550
somewhere in the skies is produced by

1668
01:09:51,500 --> 01:09:49,320
Third Kind productions in association

1669
01:09:53,030 --> 01:09:51,510
with the entertainment one podcast

1670
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:53,040
network to learn more visit

1671
01:09:57,500 --> 01:09:55,410
Entertainment one podcast calm in

1672
01:09:59,240 --> 01:09:57,510
reality UFOs are seen by people from all

1673
01:10:00,410 --> 01:09:59,250
walks of life every day all around the

1674
01:10:02,090 --> 01:10:00,420
world they've also been officially

1675
01:10:03,410 --> 01:10:02,100
investigated by the US government and by

1676
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:03,420
governments of several other countries

1677
01:10:06,650 --> 01:10:05,130
too that's just a small element of what

1678
01:10:08,270 --> 01:10:06,660
makes the strange UFO topic so

1679
01:10:10,070 --> 01:10:08,280
incredibly fascinating and fun to

1680
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:10,080
explore that's what we do on the UFO

1681
01:10:13,970 --> 01:10:12,450
podcast unknown I'm Jason McClellan and

1682
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:13,980
I invite you to explore the weird and

1683
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:15,810
wonderful world of UFOs with me and my

1684
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:17,130
friends and colleagues on unknown

1685
01:10:20,450 --> 01:10:19,050
unknown is available on Apple podcast

1686
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:20,460
Google Play stitcher I Heart Radio